TTAC3/EOTEC goes to "Realcap" only
 

Effective Feb 1 2005 highcap magazines are banned at TTAC3and at EOTEC

In addition magazines must be loaded with realistic counts. 30 round magazines are to be loaded with 33 rounds for AEG. For indoor games at TTAC3 . For outdoor at EOTEC the capacity of the lowcap will be taken as a simulation of a "full mag" this is to take into account the ability of targets to feel a single bb impact at the outside effective rage of these weapons.
Midcaps may be used but for indoor must be loaded to "realcap" levels and outside to Realcapx2.

In the future ammo restrictions will be published in term of "magazines" with a magazine ment to mean a "realcap" for indoor and a "lowcap" for outdoor.

(Realcap meaning a lowcap or midcap magazine loaded to 33 rounds , or the "realsteel" capacity plus 3 follower rounds. Pistols due to their nature as a close combat weapon will always be restricted to "realcap" loads)

Pistols also are to be loaded with realistic loads. If the replica you are running has a 7 round single stack mag.. then your mags should be loaded with 7 rounds.

experience has shown that in most of the engagments at TTAC3 30 rounds is sufficient to resolve the situation.

As a learing and training environment it is encumbant upon us to strive to realism in our Tactical Scenarios.

In my opinion having access to some 300 rounds or more will induce one to be come overreliant upon volume of fire to deal with circumstances that may be better resolved with skill.

I will endeavor to have in stock a selection of lowcap magazines should someone visit that has none.

You rock Brian! Can't wait to play again at one of your fine locations.

Can any spring-fed mag (mid-caps) be loaded with 33 rounds, or can it only be low-caps?

Midcap mags can be loaded with 33 bbs

I am trying to break the "highcap addiction" I think that too many people rely overmuch on volume of fire to acheve results.

I second that statement.

So very true. I think you have made a good choice. I have often feared that highcap users will revert airsoft into a paintball style of game and that's not where I want airsoft to go. Props man!

I doubt I'll ever attempto one of your event guys but to make it easier for everyone maybe you should get your hands on loading rods and cut them to a 33 bbs lenght. I know that for people who uses a BB loader, like me, it's not always tempting to start couting the BBs you drop in your loader to make sure you get your realistic loadout.

Just a suggestion that might help this change easier for everyone and by the way good move on going there.

*points to bottom userbar of sig* :tup:

Cutting is not necessary. Take any standard clear loading rod and count out 33 BBs once, then mark the top BB's position with either some tape or a marker. That way you can still use your loading rod for larger cap mags wherever else you use them. You can also use this method to mark off several capacities on the same loading rod.

I foresee P90s becoming a lot more popular at this venue... ;)

A great move. Our local indoor venue has a locap-only preference, and I find it works great, although "realcaps" are the epitome of what TacSim should be about, IMHO. The biggest problem used to be the cost of mags, but with the MAG and STAR locaps out now, a new player can get 8-10 mags for the cost of 2-3 Marui locaps.

My take on it is to get 4-5 marui low caps and a box of star mags that way you get a bunch of high quality mags as what you use most often and like 10 others as extra ammo, just in case.

Its the americas army syndrom. Why do you think the modern M16 has a 3 round burst instead of full auto? High caps have been taboo in manitoba games for some time now. I like it this way, I find it really helps add to the realism when people actually have to bother to reload.

but i HATE gripping those cheap plastic feeling mags.

Cheers, Brian!

This is a great move! Going in CQB (especialy) firefight against 600 rounds mag was pain and loooong waiting. No skills - just fire a lot. :(
I'll borrow 1-2 mags per game :)

Like the term "realcap" just yoinked it hope you don't mind

Great move Brian! I haven't had the pleasure of hitting your field yet, but once we get better driving conditions, you can count most of the ETF guys in coming down.

Personally I beleive that all airsoft games held should be played with "realcap" mags only. Any games with organization. The only weapons that should use highcap mags should be the M-249's. But those should be loaded to a max of 220 rounds as per real ammo boxs. As per how many mags a player should have. The number should be 5 along with 100 rounds to rebalm mags. As this is how much ammo a CF member carries on operation.

Personally I beleive that all airsoft games held should be played with "realcap" mags only. Any games with organization. The only weapons that should use highcap mags should be the M-249's. But those should be loaded to a max of 220 rounds as per real ammo boxs. As per how many mags a player should have. The number should be 5 along with 100 rounds to rebalm mags. As this is how much ammo a CF member carries on operation.

You also have to remember that unlike real bullets, one BB is unlikely to get its 'kill' across.

This is to say, one bullet will have an immediate effect on your target either killing him/her outright or at least effecting tremendous physical trauma.

One BB, on the other hand, is unlikely to be felt or even noticed. You'll need several BBs on target to 'kill' your opponent.

I'm sure we've all had this happen to us before: lighting up a guy with a short burst, he doesn't feel it, and you have to follow that up with two or three more bursts before he'll call out. BBs just don't carry the same effect.

In a similar situation with bullets, however, you can be assured that if your rounds are on target, your opponent will be done after the first or second rounds.

This is not to justify the use of ridiculous highcaps, but rather to place into context the balance between being 'realistic' and being realistic about BB terminal ballistics.

I soo have to get a game in at your field - sounds like you host my kind of shindig

I don't agree with that 100%. I played a few large games in Japan and there was a 'typical' mix of high and low caps. Nothing you wouldn't expect to see at any game around here.

The biggest difference I noticed was the volume of SAW's. There is probly one for every 10-15 players. Here there is one for every 40-50.

Having used stars for my M4 since i got into airsoft i have to agree sometimes the single shot is ignored or not noticed. IMO the 68 round low caps are far closer to a realistil ammo count than the 30, where a leaf or slight breeze can deflect your shot. Now you are playin inside and that will make all the difference,

Havnt played in Asia tho seen some pics of the bloody wealts left by super upgraded guns and mad rates of fire... not so intrested... And i think you will find SAW's far more common in the next while with star bringing out their "McDonalds" brand 249.

I don't much care who or where the highcap was invented.. nor where it is used to the best effect. I just don't like what effect it has on the players skills.

When we sweep up after a session at TTAC3 I think of all those bbs as spent casings... and it boggles the mind... in bullet terms we blow off thousands of dollars every session... This is the relative benefit to airsoft as a training simulator.. near real handling... and weight.. fraction of a penny a shot.... Now all we have to do is ensure we are taking the simulation to the next logical step. "realcap" loadouts.

I think there is merit in this .. and I will amend the rule for outside play, to lowcap only.. but the capacity of the lowcap. I think that this adresses the effectiveness of fire within the effective range of these simulators.

I have amended the original post to reflect a change in doctrin

As said before 1 bb does not equal one real world round and never will. Perhaps in OBUA it's not so bad, but definetly not true when playing anywhere with vegetation. Also, CF members use as much as needed. My buddy just got back from Kabul not too long ago. He was issued 15 mags along with an extra 100 rounds. (10 always loaded and 5 unloaded). The five is rotated through the other ten in order to ease the compressed springs.

Outdoors, definately. Indoors in CQB will probably be a little less ambiguous. Even that one BB was very noticble at TTAC3. Not that I am whining or anything :D

Agreed.

Perhaps I should have been clear. My fault.

I was speaking from an outdoor POV, mainly because I play outdoors.

Brian, thanks for the consideration. Ricouis brings up a good point. I think the 33/indoors should remain.

Brian, what is your tolerance with M203 shells? I understand that the realism is completely the opposite to that of real steel. The Airsoft M203's are really only 'useful' in close range engagments...

Brian you rock.
Lowcaps only is what TKF is all about. (In fact that is what the latin in our sigs mean)

yeah, fuck you hicaps.

Wiersema, yea 5 mags for a Reserve FTX, but on Operation, you get more.

Also, Yuxi, the US isn't issuing out full auto M4s to everyone. Only Special Ops types get them, AFAIK everyone else gets M4s with only Semi Auto an 3 round burst.

Anywho, semi auto is all you need IMO.

All I can say is....'Finally....'

I have been thinking about these after having witnessed one for the first time on Friday..

In the past I have considered these as "outside toys" but I am starting to think that they could be used inside to take the place of the ellusive airsoft grenade.

a shot of 165 bbs into a room is going to create quite a ruckus.. and then...
The only worry is close engagment.

I see them as more of a ubershotgun than anything .. and certainly the shotgun has its place in CQB.

Sounds like this will keep some people on their toes.

Great news! Some of us at ttac3 have been using r/s loadouts for some time now, nothing beats reloading under fire for sheer adrenaline.Once again you have upped the ante!!!

Bravo on you for going down this road Brian and to be honest with you a lot of us here in Ottawa use the 33 or 34 round loadout in the bush and it works just fine, you just need to get used to it.

I won't have much choice .. as I just got 30 AK starmags

I still have yet to use my M203 indoors...

Hopefully my work schedule will let up for an evening so that i can finally come down to ttac3 and make use of my 3 month membership prize... that's pretty much almost expired by now. :(

I'll ask my cousin what they're running over in afganistan currently. He just went over on the roto with 2PPCLI and C Battery, 1RCHA if i'm not mistaken. We talk on the MSN every now and then. Techies got it down pat over there. :)

Right on Brian! Finally, someone in Toronto decided to implement this rule. EOTEC event worked out just great with 300rd loadout, I don’t think anyone was close to running out by the end of the day. That's the way it should be. No 2000rd box mags, no hosing for 20 seconds without reloading etc.

I've been loading 33 rounds in my mags for ages and it's great. I still do. That was the one thing I didn't like when I ordered up my para, having a 2000 round box mag was really gay. I modded my box mag on my 249 to hold around 240 rounds. A little more than what the real one holds, but after some firing, I noticed once the box unwinds, there is nearly 40 rounds left anyhow.

Same here with mags. I find it a lot more chalenging to play with limited ammo. A lot different than having 600rd in a hicap and another 14 lows in the vest. I'm loading 50 bbs just to have couple of extra bb's in case if person will not feel it when playing outdoors, especially in the cold weather. My biggest problem is new RPK drum mag which I just ordered, thing holds 3000rds :) I don't think it will even fire if I loaded with 75 rounds. I guess I'll just use my RPK with locaps at EOTEC.

I feel out of place now, some of the guys I play with think I'm nuts for having all midcaps or standards. But I just have no purpose for a hicap.

I agree.........I have noticed players just hosing and all I think is...umm are you going to run out of ammo any time soon, or gonna change mags?

I find that when you have "real steel" ammo loadout it forces you to properly execute individual and team tactics correctly. When you do run low on ammo due to intense firefights you will want to make those shots count. Been there done that with real steel during training. I have run low on ammo, not due to "spaying and praying" (I make every round that exits my rifle count), due to long intense firefights and without ammo resuply, this forces one to make each and every shot count and think about the tactics one may want to execute. Think about having to lug not only your pack and weapon, but the ammo too, imagine carrying 300.....maybe 400, or 600 5.56 ammo on you, one may be able to carry all that, but think on how it will slow you down during a patrol, and when you come into contact during that patrol... not very realistic. Therefore with Brian having this real steal loadout will make the game not only realistic but fun as well as a great training tool for some of us :salute:

As stated by Brian, if the real steel BA mag holds 5 rounds, well one may want to load his/her mags to that,or 10 rounds. I havent seen a real steel BA mag having a 25, or 30 round capacity...yet! the next EOTEC game I attend I will load 10 rounds into each of my APS mags and give that a shot :cheers: we shall see how that goes...

That's great, I hope organizers around here pick up on this for the milsim events. I don't personally care if people carry a lot of ammo, but there has to be reloading time.

Cool, but..
 

Hey Brian,
I really like the idea that we have to use real mag capacity, but to INCREASE the realism why can't we have full auto as well? Realistically, full auto for CQB is why the submachine gun was invented...ie 'trench broom.' Now that we can't hose people with hundreds of rounds it will lead to even more realistic firefights. I understand the 'pain factor' and 'danger factor' but pain is part of the game and I really dont think that with 30 rounds total it's that much more dangerous than semi only.

just my 2 cents...I really miss full auto when playing ttac3 :cry:

Low-Caps are the only way, I like the realistic feeling of having to reload quite often. Can't wait to hit up TTAC3

I hope there is room for an exception here and there. I have played TTAC a few times now and if you remember me Brian, you may remember that excessive fire is not my thing. But mags are expensive and I supply for a few of my less fortunate friends from time to time. Owning 3 AEG's is expensive enough without having to buy loads of mags for each weapon. Also there are no lowcaps for my newest gun which I bought with TTAC3 in mind, the STAR UMP. I would have no problem with being disciplined for breaking any rules, but I like playing at TTAC and cannot afford (and in the UMP's case, GET) lowcap mags for everything. I have a few mid-caps and a High-cap for my current AEG's, but having only played for less than a year, it is difficult to keep up.

I find it totally interesting how all the R/S loadout types are all coming out of hiding. You'd think someone set off a strobe or paraflare or something....wtf guys there's no chopper coming....

Seriously, I think Rexter can agree - this is a conforting trend. It wasn't but a short time ago that there was so much adversity to this, for years.

There's always room for exception - it's the willingness to adapt and promote the concept is what the objective of the scope is. Eventually someone makes a 'low cap' for these mags - seems that STAR has responded to a market demand. It just takes time.

Umm... I'm not sure about that. We've had a few games with full auto fire in them, and the results were not encouraging.

There was one game I can vividly remember where it was a "one man's alone in that building, and he can fire full auto." When we rushed the building, I, the sorry second in, was hit seven times before I could call "hit". With semi, you'd get hit maybe twice before you can call hit.

When you think that we play probably 30 runs of the scenario in a night, that's a lot of welts to count up when you get home. Add to that two or three times a week, and you're looking at a very interesting skin complexion.

30 rounds in a mag is actually quite a lot for TTAC3. The arena is pretty small so you don't usually get into annoying standoffs where shooters just keep trying to pick away at each other. Action tends to be pretty fast and a skirmish is often resolved in minutes if one side manages to put together a cohesive rush. Even with cover fire, it's actually hard to run out two standard mags.

I've only used 49rd Glock mag there, never had to change mags during the game. Always had 10-15 if not more bb's left by the end of the round.

Full auto is rarely used for room clearing anymore. It's just too inaccurate and wasteful when one or two rounds in semi can do the job just as good. That's why the US has gone to burst round M16's... troops were depending on full auto way too much. Now I'm not saying it's never used... cause that would be an outright lie, but the majority of CQB/MOUT/FIBUA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it training now is done semi only.

Actualy full auto fire is not standard doctrin for precision room clearing.
Semi automatic fire is much more controlable and results in less "fratricide"

The SMG was designed for high volume of fire at close range .. which I guess includes CQB but my experience indicates that semi auto is much more effective for engaging targets and being able to select targets.

Full auto is fun.. no argument there ... but in reality its use is effective only in certain situtations.

What he said...

I don't want this rule to exclude anyone from participating.. everyone has limitations that they must work around.

It is the idea is that people will not rely on unrealistic ammo capacities to acheive advantage.

Remember the object at TTAC3 is to improve your skills. With real steal load outs you realy have to have the shot before you can take it.

Great! Thanks for the clarification. I will of course do my best to get the proper equipment, I just didnt want to be excluded for not having it right away. I am hoping to see you this friday in fact, unless plans go horribly awry see you then.

I *HEART* Full Auto
 

Hey Brian and peeps who replied,

I read everyone's points and I'd like to elaborate on them and my own...



The reason M16A2's are burst and semi only is for a number of reasons but one of them is NOT because it's ineffective as a CQB weapon. One of the main reasons is your average dumb grunt has a little problem with squeezing and holding the trigger when feeling threatened. Cause we arent dumb american grunts (I HOPE) we should be given the option of full auto when the situation requires it.

If someone is shot 7 times with auto in extremely close quarters its the shooters fault whether or not they were using semi or auto. A 7 shot burst is ridiculous if you are few feet away...although I have shot people maybe 10 times at 20 feet with semi before they 'felt' the shot and gave up...so maybe it could be both parties fault...if everyone would immediately raise their hands when they feel the smallest hit Im sure that the problem would go away.

All of the premiere counter terrorist/SWAT teams (GIGN, JTF2, SEALS, SAS, FBI HRT, ETF, LAPD ETC.) main arsenals are full auto capable weapons. They might have rear guard positions with semi only assault rifles but they are the exception not the rule. Rifles have more penetration (risk of injury to bystanders or team members) and are also harder to control in full automatic fire. SMG's however are by definition full auto capable and fire a pistol round that has low penetraion and relatively low damage but high controllability in fully automatic firing. OK so 'precision' training doesnt use it you say...Im personally unaware of that, I would love to read some books on the subject and with your extensive fighting knowledge Brian Im sure you have. Could you please point me in the right direction? I do know one thing about the training of one tactical team first hand...Toronto's ETF. I have seen them train and they train with full auto. They use controlled bursts. With only 30 rounds in a magazine you would be wise to use semi for most shots or better yet you could CONTROL all your bursts in full auto. Why not have the option in airsoft if fully automatic firing is true in real life and realism is desired? The limited ammo negates the main problem with full auto in airsoft; spraying...

I could be dead wrong but in terms of REALISM maybe SMG's and machine pistols should be allowed to have full auto at TTAC3 and long arms (shotguns, assault rifles) should be semi only. I dont want to start a flame war I just wanted to start an open, respectful and informed discussion. I have had an excellent time when I have played at your field Brian and I would like to play there again so please don't ban me 'cause of a little disagreement :wink:

Last I checked when SEALS doing IAD's in training the objective was to put as many rounds downstream as possible. Full auto has an use - if used effectively. Thing is they have to change mags after 30 rounds.

Airsoft barrels just don't heat up and melt....no matter how long your battery can last.

I think some particapants in this thread are forgetting that this thread is an announcement, not a debate.

Brian runs his field as he sees fit. If you would like to see a change in arena policy, the best forum to discuss it with him is at his facility. You'd also have a better handle of what to ask for once you've played the place.

Aha, the reason behind the rules, revealed! Brian's just being a jerk and making you all have the same limitations as him so he doesn't lose. =P

How are the rules going to work for TM springer shotties? They can hold 10 shots per shell which are easier to swap than stuffing several shells into a real steel pipe.

I'm guessing that a combat benelli can hold around 7 shells in the tube extended to the end of a barrel.

OOPS!
 

Heh, I guess my post was kinda long winded Ill reiterate what I said in less space...

I know that it has special applications...CQB is one of them. Im saying its more realistic to have the option when playing CQB in TTAC3 WITH LIMITED AMMO IE 30 AIRSOFT ROUNDS...

phew...next.

DUDE I HAVE PLAYED THERE. You're right it's not a debate but we're talking about increasing the realism factor with limited ammo so alls Im saying is the next step is to allow for full auto. I will talk to him about it if he likes next time Im there, but I was using this FORUM to discuss it cause thats what forums are for.

hehe, now Ill remember NEVER to write a long post again. :D

I could be dead wrong but in terms of REALISM maybe SMG's and machine pistols should be allowed to have full auto at TTAC3 and long arms (shotguns, assault rifles) should be semi only. I dont want to start a flame war I just wanted to start an open, respectful and informed discussion. I have had an excellent time when I have played at your field Brian and I would like to play there again so please don't ban me 'cause of a little disagreement :wink:[/QUOTE]

Modern Canadian and American and american military doctrin for ***precision** room clearing indicates semi automatic fire, When I was trained in percision room clearing in the 1980s this also was doctrin.

For agressive building clearing the use of fragmentation grenades and full automatic fire is SOP.

As far as TTAC3 is concerned the principal reason we stick to semi is that the walls we use are not "bullet absorbing" and full auto fire results in many many ricochettes .. making determining effective fire very difficult.

there are and will be certain situations in which I will allow full auto fire for certain people at certain times.. but 10-15 people all going rock and roll .. tried it.. it was stupid, and nothing was gained.

At the end of the day you can dissagree all you want... won't get you banned .. but it is my house.. my rules, no room for debate

Damn.... why you so smart?!!!

Wouldn't a Musket have been too cumbersome for that? :razz:

Musket... ha I was in the Canadian Armed Forces.. we chucked potatos in first and ran in shouting BANG BANG.

Luxury... we used to dream about Muskets!

Tell kids that today though..... they won't believe you!

Had to wake up in the morning, at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before you went to bed, did you?

Drink a cup of sulfuric acid before room-clearing a septic tank with wet paper bags?

Finally, another Monty Python fan. :mrgreen:

Understood Brian, I'll drop it...I do really like playing at your field/studio and you're a good guy. Thanks for letting me vent my frustration without a ban.

Good thing i have a few standard mags for my P90 as my indoor primary :tup:

Now, what would be really sweet is if someone were to host a game @ Splatters or PB Nation - BUT ONLY LIMIT TO STANDARD MAGS ONLY - NO HICAPS WHAT SO EVER... If thats all you got, too bad. Now THAT would be fun, and make it more challenging! hint hint! :D

This is good because now you can listen for the reload, and quickly rush in!

Okay, well.. this new restriction more or less limits/excludes some people. I, myself, have 2 AK's, and an mp5k. I have a midcap and a highcap for my mp5. I also have 2 full AK hicaps and a short hicap. I'm not a crazy trigger happy loony, it was just much cheaper to get what I got then spending lots of money on locaps at the time.

Regardless, I am just wondering, if you will have star mags or other locaps on field as 'rentals'? The three most common mag types are made already, AK, MP5 and Armalite.. This would be a big help for some players who don't and cannot afford to go out and buy that kindof stuff.

Rental Lowcaps
 

I have 30 Lowcap AK mags.

I will get a box of MP5 and M4 mags to have around

Post res
 

Just wanted to repost this .. and ress the thread as it is getting on to indoor play weather.. This is a reminder.

highcap magazines are banned at TTAC3and at EOTEC

In addition magazines must be loaded with realistic counts. 30 round magazines are to be loaded with 33 rounds for AEG. For indoor games at TTAC3 . For outdoor at EOTEC the capacity of the lowcap will be taken as a simulation of a "full mag" this is to take into account the ability of targets to feel a single bb impact at the outside effective rage of these weapons.
Midcaps may be used but for indoor must be loaded to "realcap" levels and outside to Realcapx2.

In the future ammo restrictions will be published in term of "magazines" with a magazine ment to mean a "realcap" for indoor and a "lowcap" for outdoor.

(Realcap meaning a lowcap or midcap magazine loaded to 33 rounds , or the "realsteel" capacity plus 3 follower rounds. Pistols due to their nature as a close combat weapon will always be restricted to "realcap" loads)

Pistols also are to be loaded with realistic loads. If the replica you are running has a 7 round single stack mag.. then your mags should be loaded with 7 rounds.

experience has shown that in most of the engagments at TTAC3 30 rounds is sufficient to resolve the situation.

As a learing and training environment it is encumbant upon us to strive to realism in our Tactical Scenarios.

In my opinion having access to some 300 rounds or more will induce one to be come overreliant upon volume of fire to deal with circumstances that may be better resolved with skill.

I will endeavor to have in stock a selection of lowcap magazines should someone visit that has none.

Owww raw. I been trying to shake my friend from his high caps, and have avoided using the one that's coming with my first aeg. First thing I am doing once age verified is selling or trading my famas high cap for some lows.

I much rather use lowcaps with only 33 rounds then a high cap any ways. I came to airsoft cause the gear is much more realistic and I plan to keep my games that way. PS Brian it make it more interesting if it was cap limited to its real steal counter part any ways.

Umm... Its 2006 currently and in Feb its gonna be 2007 so why does it say 2005?

Because that is when the rule came into effect. This has been around for sometime (Feb 2005) and he was just letting everyone know again.

I like the rule. I wish there was something like that out here for our games. Too many hi-caps being used in large quantites is not good for the sport.

it is a repost... as a reminder... post edited

I just use my hi-cap indoors cause its easier to relaod between games. I use MAG mags outdoors.

Man, I use a hicap because when I did have the $ to buy a bunch of low/mid cap mags either an unexpected expense came out or like just now how I have a full time alright paying job... the retailers get busted. so f**k it, im just saving up for a car right now untill all this airsoft s**t gets sorted out and then ill finnaly pimp out the m14.

Rails, scope, wood stock, sling, tighbore (510mm / 6.03 dia.) , full m120 upgrade kit, vest full of m14 lows or mids.

don't really care
 

about all the reasons why you prefer highcaps... or why you don't have any lowcaps...

All I am saying is that in my training environment you need low caps... you only need 2 or 3 mags.. all of our scenarios run short.

Brian, good on you. Real caps are the way to go and incourage people (newbs especially) to play more intelligently. For those whom use cheater mags and don't like the new low & real cap rule I have only one thing to say ... tough banana's.

What he said...

Dont you mean "suck it up princesss"?