FAQ for Tokyo Marui Hi-Capa, 2011, 1911, MEU & Detonics type variants

[e-luder]

One last thing...

Do Western Arms 1911s have good tolerance with propane? ie. CAN i use propane instead of duster gas?

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by e-luder

I'm trying to build a fast cycling gun based on a 1911 single stack. I'm trying to get the slide to cycle more efficiently due to the smaller gas reservoir. Would it make sense to also pair the lighter NineBall BBH with some shock buffers to short stroke the gun and the stock recoil spring to achieve this goal?

If you want faster cycling, increase the recoil spring to a stronger one as well. A stock spring is too weak - especially if you have a metal slide, it will move sluggishly. If your build is based on good components, you should be able to get over 40 shots off a regular 28 round MEU magazine.

Originally Posted by e-luder

The slide is metal with a tighter than usual seal for the piston head. I customized the o-ring to achieve this. The loading muzzle is still able to spring back and fourth freely without friction.

I was wondering what your opinion is on this below:

I did the mod in the hunt to create a "perfect" seal to give a more crisp cycle- but as narrow-minded as I was, the perfect seal doesn't mean "no air leaks". the thing needs to vent...

No, it does not need to vent during a normal cycle. It will vent when the slide blows past the release point. At this point, the gas vents out, and the seal is broken from the magazine. A tight seal is good, as long as it doesn't restrict movement of the nozzle drastically. Using a ventilated piston is the easiest way to get a tight seal without doing any sort of complicated modding of an o-ring.

Originally Posted by e-luder

What worries me is that if piston head seals "too well", it may cause the loading nozzle to explode. I did the mod on the Glock Guarder nozzle for testing and though it boasted a higher FPS output (somewhere between 360 to 385 FPS), it cracked the muzzle. The gas pressure was too much for that particular muzzle. I am hoping that the TM 1911s have a higher tolerance than their Glock line. But I see no real design changes in their muzzle assembly.

Your concern is valid, as it is common place to replace the nozzle with an enhanced one. The Marui nozzle is known to crack under moderate pressure. Using an enhanced recoil spring, metal slide, and propane is compounding the pressure on a nozzle that was designed to handle low pressure duster gas with a stock recoil spring and a light weight plastic slide. I can't even count the number of cracked nozzles I've seen.

I'm not surprised your Guarder nozzle cracked either... they're known to be fairly crap for the 1911/Hi-Capa platform. There are a lot of better options available.

Originally Posted by e-luder

Is there anyway to get around this without reducing the size of the o-ring? Can I mod the floating valve to direct most of the gas to the BB while still keeping enough air to cycle the slide crisply? The only solution I can see it install stronger floating valve spring to keep the valve open longer. On the Glock, I also modified a Firefly floating valve to have "slimmed legs", a smaller valve head thingy to funnel air towards the BB more but it still destroyed the muzzle.

I don't get what you're saying here. I think there may be some confusion on the understanding of how modern GBB's function (and all semi-automatic REAL guns, in general). You need to understand that the projectile being shot out of the gun, and the slide cycling are two DIFFERENT cycles of the gun... and they do not occur concurrently, even if it looks like that's what's happening. The cycle shift occurs so fast, that you may be perceiving them occurring at the same time, but that is not the case. In fact, the BB is fired out of the gun... and until it leaves the muzzle of the gun, the slide does not begin to cycle.

Once the projectile leaves the muzzle of the gun, a negative pressure occurs within the system on the barrel side, causing the floating valve to close under the pressure of the gas being exhausted in. Once the valve closes, the pressure is contained and builds in the nozzle. The only part that is able to move at that point, is the piston head, which is what starts the slide's blowback of the cycle.

Yes, I'm still selling ILLusion Kinetics Blowback units. I've received a resupply of a lot of inventory in the past couple of months, but have not had the time nor opportunity to list all these goodies yet. I've had to rebuild my sales page, and there is a ton of inventory here. It's taking me a while to get through.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by e-luder

One last thing...

Do Western Arms 1911s have good tolerance with propane? ie. CAN i use propane instead of duster gas?

NO.

Not without modification. At the very least, you will need a metal slide.

Or, if you can still find it, Airsoft Innovations use to manufacture a flow restrictor for the WA Magna pistols. It allows full gas power to the BB, but restricted gas output to the blowback cycle to reduce impact on the slide.

Personally, metal slides at full pressure blowback is way more fun.

[e-luder]

Sorry for the poor explanation.

You took the words right out of my mouth in what the nature of the things are.

I was experimenting with a theory that my friends proposed to me in that the hypothesis was to keep the valve open long enough so that there will be reduced pressure once the floating valve closes. The hypothesis is that, relative to how long the blowoff valve stays open vs how much air is being funnelled towards the bb, if we keep the floating valve opened long enough and somehow direct the majority of the expelled air towards the bb (ie. stronger valve springs to resist the negative pressure and wider legs to lessen the impedence of in the air's path, we can take away a fraction of the amount of gas used to create the cycle therefore lessening the pressure inside the loading muzzle once the floating valve is closed and prolonging the life of the loading muzzle (...by like... a day).

It's all relative to how long the blowoff valve stays open open though and how effective the knocker strike is. But I've since discarded this experiment as the amount of gas expelled from the blowoff valve is constant and not varying in pressure with each strike(unless the magazine begins to run out of gas). Plus the valves closes at the same times no matter how much air is being funnelled towards the bb.

I hope that it somehow makes sense (i hope the logic behind it makes sense). I have trouble explaining things clearly. lol.

I had hoped that it would have helped prolong the over all lifespan of the loading muzzle but it didn't. I went through 5 guarder and stock nozzles before I discarded the experiment inconclusive.

But I wanted to get your opinion on the matter.

[e-luder]

i apologize for the flawed logic in the experiment. lol.

[ILLusion]

In addition to my previous explanation on how the gas cycle of modern GBB's work:

Once the floating valve is closed and the slide begins moving, the valve knocker will keep the magazine's release valve open for as long as it takes for the slide to blow back to a certain point. This trigger point is indicated via the ramps on the blowback unit in the 1911/Hi-Capa, Glock series, Sig series, and more. Thus, there is no such thing as splitting the volume of gas between one function to another, because the volume of gas expelled is not fixed. The amount of gas expelled is dependent on a number of variables, all of which, determine how fast the slide will blow back. The faster the slide blows back, the faster valve knocker disconnector is triggered.

And likewise, the slower the slide blows back, the more gas is expelled in to the chamber (nozzle).

There are existing experiments with stronger floating valve springs... I even have some in some of my guns, but in my experience, more often than not, they just don't work that well. It creates too much resistance for the negative pressure system to overcome, and it results in excess gas being shot out the muzzle, and very weak blowback.

... reading over your reply again, I think you actually just described what I described, but in a different view. It makes sense.

There are high flow floating valves available for the 1911/Hi-Capa series, which, as you've described, is just a reduction of columns in the body of the valve to increase the volume of flow. I have a few on hand, if you wanted to give them a try, but in my opinion, there are better things to spend money on first if you are looking to increase power.

Anyways, Guarder nozzles... suck. I've cracked a few in the 1911/Hi-Capa series. I only have one remaining one which has held up strong (surprisingly). My personal preference for nozzles are the Shooters Design POM, or the Airsoft Surgeon product.

[GP]

I'm not of the same point of wiev..............

I usually use this theory to use co2 mags on my pistols and it works good.

The way is modify the position of the release of the gas valve by modify the BBhousing
In this pic is the command of the backflow



and in this one the modification to the BBhousing for advancing the closure of the valve



In this way you can use different gas and limit the stress to the sliders.

Note:

1-different lengths of the metal part I put on my BBhousing can let you fit the right way to use the gun. Of course you may start from the longest one and than reduce it step by step till the good perform.
2-I tested this solution on hi-capa whit ABS slider and standard co2 Kjw mags and works great..............
3-the system is running on impulse and not on the initial gas supply steady and continuous.
In this way the accelerations are very high and the ABS yields to fatigue briefly.

clearly the jump in performance from the duster to propane is less than the duster to co2.
I think you can do that easily.

[jordan7831]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

NO.

Not without modification. At the very least, you will need a metal slide.

Or, if you can still find it, Airsoft Innovations use to manufacture a flow restrictor for the WA Magna pistols. It allows full gas power to the BB, but restricted gas output to the blowback cycle to reduce impact on the slide.

Personally, metal slides at full pressure blowback is way more fun.

I found a sight a few months ago that still had some in stock. Mad Max doesnt have anymore however. Google should reveal everything.

[GP]

look at this old video...........and note the hardware showed ............same mod.

Japanese Air Soft Race Guns - YouTube

[GP]

look at this wery old video..........same mod.

Japanese Air Soft Race Guns - YouTube

[e-luder]

In addition to my previous explanation on how the gas cycle of modern GBB's work:

Once the floating valve is closed and the slide begins moving, the valve knocker will keep the magazine's release valve open for as long as it takes for the slide to blow back to a certain point. This trigger point is indicated via the ramps on the blowback unit in the 1911/Hi-Capa, Glock series, Sig series, and more. Thus, there is no such thing as splitting the volume of gas between one function to another, because the volume of gas expelled is not fixed. The amount of gas expelled is dependent on a number of variables, all of which, determine how fast the slide will blow back. The faster the slide blows back, the faster valve knocker disconnector is triggered.

And likewise, the slower the slide blows back, the more gas is expelled in to the chamber (nozzle).

There are existing experiments with stronger floating valve springs... I even have some in some of my guns, but in my experience, more often than not, they just don't work that well. It creates too much resistance for the negative pressure system to overcome, and it results in excess gas being shot out the muzzle, and very weak blowback.

... reading over your reply again, I think you actually just described what I described, but in a different view. It makes sense.

There are high flow floating valves available for the 1911/Hi-Capa series, which, as you've described, is just a reduction of columns in the body of the valve to increase the volume of flow. I have a few on hand, if you wanted to give them a try, but in my opinion, there are better things to spend money on first if you are looking to increase power.

Anyways, Guarder nozzles... suck. I've cracked a few in the 1911/Hi-Capa series. I only have one remaining one which has held up strong (surprisingly). My personal preference for nozzles are the Shooters Design POM, or the Airsoft Surgeon product.

It's not so much power I was after but more for durability' sake. As I specified before, the Glock that I tested on was already firing unreasonably too hot for my taste (topped out at 387fps).

The only way I found to keep the valve open is to use the actual stream of air coming from the blowoff valve itself to resist the negative pressure. It meant that I had to reposition the valve blocker in order to get a few decimeters of spacing for the floating valve to "float" on top of the intake hole on the loading muzzle. The result is as you've pointed out, weak "blowback" or no blowback at all since the valve will remain open..........and gas dumps on the first trigger pull since the disconnector wasn't tripped.

But you're right, the time could have been invested in looking at alternate solutions. I could've just switched the piston head back to the way it was but it would mean that I would have had to find another way of consuming gas effectively. I was barely making it to a full stack on a single fill when I got the gun. lol. I modified things and now It clears nearly 2 (24+1) stacks on a single fill.

The thing with the Airsoft Surgeon muzzle sets (I'm talking about the power up kit w/ the springs included) is that they seemed to fit very tightly with the BBH and the piston head. I had one installed on a 4.3 and the muzzle and piston head it came with had a lot of friction and prevented it from moving smoothly. Plus, the recoil spring shredded my two piece outerbarrel (it stripped the chamber threads). But that was on a 4.3. I think that recoil spring is made to tailor the 5.1 (as you've specified in previous posts, months back)

The Shooter's Design ones were ok. But again the piston heads I''ve paired it with didn't seal properly. At least, not on the Glock platform.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by GP

I'm not of the same point of wiev..............

What is the point of view that you do not agree with? What you've posted below has nothing to do with previous discussion. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Originally Posted by GP

I usually use this theory to use co2 mags on my pistols and it works good.

The way is modify the position of the release of the gas valve by modify the BBhousing
In this pic is the command of the backflow



and in this one the modification to the BBhousing for advancing the closure of the valve



In this way you can use different gas and limit the stress to the sliders.

Note:

1-different lengths of the metal part I put on my BBhousing can let you fit the right way to use the gun. Of course you may start from the longest one and than reduce it step by step till the good perform.
2-I tested this solution on hi-capa whit ABS slider and standard co2 Kjw mags and works great..............
3-the system is running on impulse and not on the initial gas supply steady and continuous.
In this way the accelerations are very high and the ABS yields to fatigue briefly.

clearly the jump in performance from the duster to propane is less than the duster to co2.
I think you can do that easily.

It's an interesting technique to do this conversion, but IMHO, by converting it to an impulse gas system, you are essentially reversing 20 years of evolution, and turning this gun in to the MGC's that were proliferated the market at least 15 years ago. Back then, semi-automatic GBB systems were all based on impulse based systems, where timing was not controlled by the actual movement of the cycle, but rather, by how long the valve knocker was able to stay on the release valve till it slipped off.

It presented some problems in different weather conditions and if different gasses were attempted to be used... unless the user was lucky enough to be able to have multiple components available to swap in and out according to varying conditions and gas pressures. Going back to your solution, this presents the same problem - the lack of flexibility to use different gasses at a moment's notice.

Regardless, I think it is a unique approach, and interesting to see someone is able to find a solution that works for a very specific problem.

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by e-luder

It's not so much power I was after but more for durability' sake. As I specified before, the Glock that I tested on was already firing unreasonably too hot for my taste (topped out at 387fps).

The only way I found to keep the valve open is to use the actual stream of air coming from the blowoff valve itself to resist the negative pressure. It meant that I had to reposition the valve blocker in order to get a few decimeters of spacing for the floating valve to "float" on top of the intake hole on the loading muzzle. The result is as you've pointed out, weak "blowback" or no blowback at all since the valve will remain open..........and gas dumps on the first trigger pull since the disconnector wasn't tripped.

But you're right, the time could have been invested in looking at alternate solutions. I could've just switched the piston head back to the way it was but it would mean that I would have had to find another way of consuming gas effectively. I was barely making it to a full stack on a single fill when I got the gun. lol. I modified things and now It clears nearly 2 (24+1) stacks on a single fill.

The thing with the Airsoft Surgeon muzzle sets (I'm talking about the power up kit w/ the springs included) is that they seemed to fit very tightly with the BBH and the piston head. I had one installed on a 4.3 and the muzzle and piston head it came with had a lot of friction and prevented it from moving smoothly. Plus, the recoil spring shredded my two piece outerbarrel (it stripped the chamber threads). But that was on a 4.3. I think that recoil spring is made to tailor the 5.1 (as you've specified in previous posts, months back)

The Shooter's Design ones were ok. But again the piston heads I''ve paired it with didn't seal properly. At least, not on the Glock platform.

And months later, I still hold the same train of thought of not using the Airsoft Surgeon springs with a 4.3. They're simply too strong and too stiff. All sorts of problems are experienced with them in such a setup. I still prefer the Guarder springs for most uses.

[GP]

Hi Illusion .........

Originally Posted by ILLusion

What is the point of view that you do not agree with? What you've posted below has nothing to do with previous discussion. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Sorry I was talking of this e-luder post

Originally Posted by e-luder

One last thing...

Do Western Arms 1911s have good tolerance with propane? ie. CAN i use propane instead of duster gas?

I think that it's possible to run propane or greengas on WA ......... on my oldies wa1911 I run green gas to and is a fullplastic gun whit 20 years of life
I've only done the mod indicated.

This is my one



I'm from italy and my english it's not very good and maybe i misunderstod the sense of the next posts, sorry.

I'm an old wargame softgunner, Ive practiced it for over 20 years......
Now it's 2 year than i Practice IPSC shooting ........
Here in Italy it's the beghinning of this practice.

I don't work in softair field but I love those toys and I customize myself my guns.................

That's all .....I think

Bye

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by GP

Sorry I was talking of this e-luder post

Okay, so then basically, we ARE in agreement and you DO share the same view. My post that you had originally responded to, my answer was "NO, you can not use a Western Arms without modification."

To which, you just confirmed with your post. Yours works... because you modified it.