Thunder Bay Police out of line

[Armyissue]

Blame OJ.
He was a primary example of how the legal system will punish you and find you "not guilty" at the same time.
The new way is to tie a person or company in the courts. With lawyers and court fee's you cannot stand for long against the tax payer funded Prosecutor. So if you make it all the way through to vindication you're most likely in the poor house.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by Scouser

Just wondering TPM001 how that applies to legal indoor fields then like xtreme tactics here in winnipeg. They were the first legal indoor airsoft facility in canada if i recall correctly, or one of the first. They wouldnt be able to get insured if they were committing a felony every day.

I'm pretty sure the replica laws apply to the sale and importation. After that, I'm not really sure.

You guys aren't going to want to hear this, but one surefire way out of this mess is the system that the UK has, whereby you can actually apply for a license to own airsoft guns, with a proper ID card and everything. Age minimum 18, Joule/velocity limits are regulated legally, people can sell proper guns without risk of being raided, large and official games happen all the time. British people can order from overseas no problem, and the market is opened up to all sorts of great things.

Isn't that what we want?

There's a reason the huge games from the scoutthedoggie videos are happening in Scotland and not in Canada. We need to get legit.

Like Blackthorne said, this friction between authorities and the sport may be the kernel to the path to where we need to be as a sport. You can't keep airsoft a backwater downlow underground sport forever. Not with the hoarde of teenagers wanting to get a bit more realism out of their Call of Duty habit. Keeping it underground is a great way to ensure it will eventually get squashed.

Some folks don't seem to understand just how super-nuclear the marketing machine for airsoft has gone and how "out of their hands" this situation is now. I politely suggest that we get on top of it.

[MaciekA]

Addendum to my pro-regulatory, pro-card-carrying message above, which may ruffle some feathers with regards to of privacy rights and personal freedom:

When it comes to real firearms that can be used to defend yourself and your family, I would personally advocate a stay-out-of-my-business, Second Amendment, libertarian stance. I can see the logic when applied to the "if all goes to shit" scenario, and it also feels correct when considered for hunting and stuff. I think many people in this country feel that way and so it makes sense that we have the urge to keep guns legal but to make toy guns illegal.

On the topic of replicas and toys that heavily overlap with the social circles of youth culture and such, I think we could gain something by taking the more British (and therefore Nanny-state style) stance on this. I don't think we can count on Canada becoming dramatically more pro-gun over time, but we can probably pull off what the Brits have pretty easily with the right campaigning and marketing.

[Scouser]

Kinda what i thought mate. Ive read about how things run in the UK and that would probably make it a lot easier on those of us who play here in canada. The trick is, unfortunately getting there.

[Crunchmeister]

I highly doubt that you'll find many in the airsoft scene in Canada too willing to put more government control and stricter regulations on what we already have, especially considering in the last few years the airsoft situation in Canada has improved drastically. 3 years ago, all non-clear guns sold in Canada were imported via BFL abuse and sold illegally on the side. Nowadays, we can get a ton of awesome high quality LEGAL AEGs and now seeing quality pistols with tinted frames being readily available.

And look at it this way - even if you have a license, it still doesn't prevent some snoopy neighbour or whatever from calling the cops stating that you've got a machine gun in your house, getting raided, etc. The problem is the general public, not us and our toys.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

There's a reason the huge games from the scoutthedoggie videos are happening in Scotland and not in Canada. We need to get legit.

Umm... we are legit. The reason we don't see videos like that here is that we don't have people putting in the effort to do it. There should have been an amazing video that came out of Border Wars II and 2 years later, it never surfaced. We have other large events in Canada all the time. There's just no planned team of videographers and subsequent editors to put things together into a video on the scale of scoutthedoggie. Effort that organizers put into videography and release of said videos is the reason we don't see vids like that here, not because of things being illegal. There is NOTHING illegal about owning and using an airsoft gun in a lawful manner.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by Crunchmeister

Effort that organizers put into videography and release of said videos is the reason we don't see vids like that here, not because of things being illegal. There is NOTHING illegal about owning and using an airsoft gun in a lawful manner.

Fair enough, though I will raise the question of velocities during import, during sale, during active use/transport/storage, and during other somewhat ambiguous times. A licensing scheme would at least legitimize ambiguous cases (see gearbox-open example below) and other common corner cases (trade of parts and free importation of parts).

I'm interested in resolving the following legal statuses and/or possible ambiguities, with documentation to back them up:

1) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during import: ~430fps. Legal? yes
2) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during sale: ~430fps. Legal? yes
3) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during gaming/storage/transport: 360fps. Legal? unsure
4) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during gaming, discharge within city limits, unlicensed venue: 360fps. Legal? no
5) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during gaming, discharge within city limits, licensed venue: 360fps. Legal? yes
6) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during gaming, discharge at rural private venue locked far away from public, licensed venue: 360fps. Legal? unsure
7) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during tech work, lying on desk while I have the gearbox open nearby. NIL fps. Legal? unsure, but #8 hints at maybe no
8) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver in transit without a gearbox in a Canada Post box. Legal? no (refer to recent RCMP busts / chatter amongst local retailers)

I still think true legitimacy is different from the grey area we occupy right now, and true legitimacy would open up the market in ways that we don't observe at the moment, as has happened in the UK (with the right to import airsoft rifles and receivers from abroad, for example).

[Crunchmeister]

Our laws are fucked up and convoluted. They deal with the importation and transfer of replicas, but not with possession. You can own and use them. You just can't import, buy or sell them.

It's more complicated than that of course, but that's the basics of it. Perhaps someone can explain the law in more detail than I can.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by Crunchmeister

Our laws are fucked up and convoluted. They deal with the importation and transfer of replicas, but not with possession. You can own and use them.

Thanks.

On a personal note, it's kinda crazy I've gone this long without resolving some of these questions to my satisfaction. I've tried looking at some of the government literature, but legalese can be hard to follow.

[Danke]

Do not hold the UK model up as a be all, end all. Players there could completely loose their exemption to their law with the stroke of a pen.

All it would take is government in power deciding to make some hay with the voting public.

[durak]

Originally Posted by MaciekA

Fair enough, though I will raise the question of velocities during import, during sale, during active use/transport/storage, and during other somewhat ambiguous times. A licensing scheme would at least legitimize ambiguous cases (see gearbox-open example below) and other common corner cases (trade of parts and free importation of parts).

I'm interested in resolving the following legal statuses and/or possible ambiguities, with documentation to back them up:

1) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during import: ~430fps. Legal? yes

2) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during sale: ~430fps. Legal? yes

3) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during gaming/storage/transport: 360fps. Legal? unsure No

4) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during gaming, discharge within city limits, unlicensed venue: 360fps. Legal? no

5) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during gaming, discharge within city limits, licensed venue: 360fps. Legal? yes No, but discharge of the item is legal

6) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during gaming, discharge at rural private venue locked far away from public, licensed venue: 360fps. Legal? unsure No, but discharge of the item is legal

7) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver during tech work, lying on desk while I have the gearbox open nearby. NIL fps. Legal? unsure, but #8 hints at maybe no No


8) My G&P C8 with full metal receiver in transit without a gearbox in a Canada Post box. Legal? no (refer to recent RCMP busts / chatter amongst local retailers)

I still think true legitimacy is different from the grey area we occupy right now, and true legitimacy would open up the market in ways that we don't observe at the moment, as has happened in the UK (with the right to import airsoft rifles and receivers from abroad, for example).

Our laws are fucked up and convoluted. They deal with the importation and transfer of replicas, but not with possession. You can own and use them. You just can't import, buy or sell them.

It's more complicated than that of course, but that's the basics of it. Perhaps someone can explain the law in more detail than I can.

any airsoftgun that isnt clear or opaque or otherwise made to not be a replica is illegal to import, purchase or own unless you can prove you purchased it before DEC 1998, that being said its not enforced.

what makes the current all black (i wont use full metal because not all of them are) legal to import is that they are modified by the manufacturer to shoot over 407 fps. this makes them uncontrolled firearms, it puts them in the same category of pellet guns, which are not regulated by the government other than you have to be 18 or older to purchase one in most provinces. as soon as they are modified to shoot below 407 FPS they again become replica firearms which are a Prohibited item.
*edit* supporting documentation:

replica firearms: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...plique-eng.htm

Air guns: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...me_air-eng.htm

as I have already said, its mostly not enforced unless someone commits a crime. then you get into serious firearms charges. armed robbery and that sort of stuff.

[Trev140_0]

Nice to see these posts as to me this cuts the crap out and gets tot he bottom line.


MaciekA, you touch on a subject for some reason is avoided and to be honest I have no idea why.

I liked your post on listing the legality of the different "condition" of the gun.


Interesting.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by durak

any airsoftgun that isnt clear or opaque or otherwise made to not be a replica is illegal to import, purchase or own unless you can prove you purchased it before DEC 1998, that being said its not enforced.

what makes the current all black (i wont use full metal because not all of them are) legal to import is that they are modified by the manufacturer to shoot over 407 fps. this makes them uncontrolled firearms, it puts them in the same category of pellet guns, which are not regulated by the government other than you have to be 18 or older to purchase one in most provinces. as soon as they are modified to shoot below 407 FPS they again become replica firearms which are a Prohibited item.
*edit* supporting documentation:

replica firearms: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...plique-eng.htm

Air guns: http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...me_air-eng.htm

as I have already said, its mostly not enforced unless someone commits a crime. then you get into serious firearms charges. armed robbery and that sort of stuff.

Thanks for digging and posting.

The above issue is the one that makes me the most uncomfortable. It's no secret how cansoft stuff is regarded on this site (just look at some of the reactions to the recent arrival of cansoft TM pistols..). It's pretty clear that many players are in a firmly non-legit territory and that the prevailing attitude towards Cansoft coupled with "game legalities" are at extreme odds. It opens up a lot of liabilities for field owners and also presents a rather easy attack vector for authorities who are looking to stir the pot or make quotas or gain political capital.

Perhaps everyone should just start firing 407+ and the rules for protective gear and engagement distances can become stricter. Also, reinforced gearboxes ..

[MaciekA]

An afterthought: How hard do you guys think it would be to push the 407 figure down to 360? It would represent a happy intersection between game legal and government legal.

[durak]

very, it doesnt say much on the subject in the links i posted, but 407 FPS is the point where an airsoft gun becomes harmful in the eyes of the RCMP and feds, thus relagating the airsoft gun into the uncontrolled firearm. this mark was found with the pig eye test. they take a pigs eye, shoot it with guns of varying velocity, and the velocity where it damages it is the minimum velocity for an airsoft gun shooting a .2g pellet or BB. this is where the 407 mark came from.

when it comes to firearms in canada, the mantra is: If it can't hurt you, you can't have it.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by durak

very, it doesnt say much on the subject in the links i posted, but 407 FPS is the point where an airsoft gun becomes harmful in the eyes of the RCMP and feds, thus relagating the airsoft gun into the uncontrolled firearm. this mark was found with the pig eye test. they take a pigs eye, shoot it with guns of varying velocity, and the velocity where it damages it is the minimum velocity for an airsoft gun shooting a .2g pellet or BB. this is where the 407 mark came from.

I'm trying to understand how this came to be. I'd understand why they'd want to relegate the airsoft gun into the uncontrolled realm, but then that would make the existence of Cansoft hard to explain. What was the logic here?