Border Wars?

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Ronald Chang

If I am right, the first 2 Border War game fee was only $ 35 (with one drink and hamburger), which I think is well worth. Then the third one was increased to $ 100. If you take the transportation, bbs, equipment, battery, propane, and food/drink, into account, it could easily add up to a more susbtantial amount for many young people.

The increase was simply too much and the bad economy also made this whole game became unaffordable to many people.

Again ... that is BS ... 130+ people posted "in" and "confirmed" well before the game when the Cost was well known.

I had an Org chart at company strength well before the Payment deadline.. but when it came time to put up $ there was clearly a lot more talkers than walkers.

A good lesson was learned by all involved ... Most people's post of "in Confirmed" actually means .. Maybe ill show up if the weather is clear and I can arrange a ride and I don't have to do something else that I forgot to check on before saying Ill be there

[Zeonprime]

Originally Posted by T_A_N_K

I'm not sure how it is in other provinces, but at least in Ontario, when hosts look at a CONFIRMED roster of attendees, they calculate at least 30% will flake just because. If the weather is less than perfect even more will flake.

I'm glad you pointed that out.

I never confirmed or signed up for BW3, I didnt have the time, or money for the game at that time. But I know plenty of dragons who started TRAINING for that game months in advance, and I know how disappointed they were when the game was canceled as they had started making $$ investments in gear and equipment for that event.

Flakers just dont cause the host(s) financial issues when they screw over a game, they screw over the other players too. This is why so many of us are fed up with the kraken ticklers and the folks who just treat large scale events like just another skirmish day. If you cannot confirm in 100% barring injury, medical or family emergency dont sign up.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by H1TMAN

Must games in the province of quebec range from 25$ to 35$. The more expensive games behind held on paintball fields and no one here bitches too much about the price. Its unfortunate to see large events comme to an end because people think that 25$ is too expensive for a game.

True that. Last year, Red Tiger's games were the cheapest [public] events at $15, which was exceptionally cheap considering his field was awesome. Most games here are in the $20-$40 range, in part due to them being on paintball fields which charge a fair chunk up front (but even then, a lot of people paid $25/4 hours all winter to play at the indoor pball place, which is really expensive considering the place).

But beyond that a lot of [usually veteran] players here will invest in equipment for games: for the winter game a lot of us went out and bought snowshoes and other winter gear. Similarly, last year at LZ's Op Kandahar, most of the Taliban players showed up in hadjiwear (most of the people in my group didn't have any, we went out and brought it for the event).

So I think Brian M. really hit the nail on the head; with the greatly lowered price of getting into airsoft, we now have players with far more restricted budgets. People now expect to be able to play for $300 and balk at spending more than a token amount for events (again, why so many events this year have gone private).

Originally Posted by T_A_N_K

I'm not sure how it is in other provinces, but at least in Ontario, when hosts look at a CONFIRMED roster of attendees, they calculate at least 30% will flake just because. If the weather is less than perfect even more will flake.

This was a huge problem a couple of years ago, so last year we started taking attendance and coordinating between organizers to know who's flaking etc. Basically flakers get banned (1 year) from any future events by that organizer and potentially all other organizers acting in solidarity, full stop.

You call in, show up or call out with sufficient notice or you'll stay home and play with yourself.

Flakers ruin games for players and organizers alike. Stop buying every overpriced piece of shit Magpul* throws out on the market and invest in a fucking goretex jacket and waterproof boots so you don't have to run away like a little sissy if it starts raining.

Attendance at most of these games were close to 100% in 2009.


*Magpul does put out some good stuff, I own Magpul products. But some fanboys seem to have it as a goal to buy each and every piece of Magpul gear that comes out, in every available color, no matter how useless or redundant. And that's fine if you can afford it. But when you can't fit into one of the teams because you only have one BDU (and its in the wrong pattern/color) or you're afraid to play in the cold or rain because you aren't properly dressed, or you come out on the field in sneakers... you're an idiot.

[T_A_N_K]

I'm thinking that the consensus with hosts at least in Ontario, if that if you flake once, your priority when you sign up at the next game is dropped significantly, to the point you can be bumped for a vet player, or someone who has shown consistent attendance if there are game caps. As they should.

[Ronald Chang]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Again ... that is BS ... 130+ people posted "in" and "confirmed" well before the game when the Cost was well known.

I had an Org chart at company strength well before the Payment deadline.. but when it came time to put up $ there was clearly a lot more talkers than walkers.

A good lesson was learned by all involved ... Most people's post of "in Confirmed" actually means .. Maybe ill show up if the weather is clear and I can arrange a ride and I don't have to do something else that I forgot to check on before saying Ill be there

Please don't say I am BS as I believe this forum is for constructive discussion.

I show no sympathy to flakers but I would like to direct the game organizers/hosts to another perspective to see the whole thing.

Yes. The cost of game was revealed well before the game WHEN the economic downturn just started. So it is not surprised to see a lot of people still expressed they were confirmed or in.Then the economy became really dead in time when the BW was approaching. If I am right, it was around April, May when we heard a lot of bad economic news e.g. close down of big companies, layoff, ...... So that's a big possibility that many people who could pay the fee when they signed up had become jobless or financially tight. And I suspect if the fee was same as the previous years, more people could pay for it.

So it would be a good way for large game hosts to have alternate plans for happening of different scenarios, or be a bit more flexible in adjusting the set up of the game to lower the operating cost.

Finally, my salute to the BW hosts, I joined the first two BWs and really enjoyed them a lot.

[QKLee11]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

I don't think there was any "smoke and Mirrors" Though I was not an organizer I was closely involved in many of the details.

The only miss-step was allowing people to sign up without $ down to start.

Also the Broadsword event ( which was at the same venue but not organized by the same group ) was lackluster due to bad planning and execution .. and people presumed (wrongly) that the same issues would be in play at BW.

BW suffered from under-capitalization.. and the players did the typical.. Ill wait and see if the game is confirmed before I pony up... Well if everyone waits .. then no one pays and the game goes south.

Most people don't have the first clue regarding the costs to get a large OP at a rented field off the ground... it is $thousands$ when you factor insurance and support fixed costs... They think that someone is earning large if the game fee breaches $20 .. and for some reason airsofters can't seem to tolerate someone making a little money to offset their risk... If I charge you $20 and put $2 in my pocket.. they feel I "ripped them off" for $2

I've been burned as well on games where 6 months out you have a full roster but on game day .. everyone has to wash their hair.

To my understanding ,, that is an issue at the LZ as well ...

Thanx Brian, the whole event was for 2 days with a CQB format and a field format which made the exercise diverse. This would of made a great MILSIM here in Canada. I have talked to Krusty and PWOR about running another one or one simular. However this time invite Teams from Canada, USA and senior people known in the community and put it on. I think after a while the Team will run another big MILSIM.

[PaddMadd]

I think the biggest thing that people didn't think of when they saw the cost was that it took a LOT of money for that venue. If I remember right it was a DND-owned or leased property, not some guy's field in the back forty. There was also a lot of preparation that had to go into the building as far as construction, clean-up, and the like.
When I first came here I liked the idea of BWIII, and I wanted to go, I was just waiting on my income tax to come in before I could commit to the game. I had no problem with travelling across the country for my first real airsoft game, and if I had the chance(and the money) to take part in a game like BWIII, I'd be willing to do it again.

[Big Red]

I'll just chime in for a brief moment....Krusty and I attended Broadsword, as those who attended will recall, simply as non-participants as it gave both of us the opportunity to recce the place out fully and observe some of the play in Broadsword as we worked on the scenarios for BWIII.

We were open to the ASC community and explained why the cost was significantly higher which was largely as a result of insurance requirements for liability at a multi-building facility that has been abandoned and in some cases blown to rat crap by JTF2.

To ensure a safe event (safety first fun second) was going to require some major logistics especially for the night op.

Those who have attended the BW series know that we don't tip our hat on the scenarios although we supply the theme. Objectives change as per our game design based upon field developments.

Countless hours were spent just planning BW III alone and we were equally saddened we had to cancel. Quite frankly those of us in Force Recon weren't prepared to take the financial hit without confirmation of solid numbers.

BW II cost a fair amount of money (many thousands) which was fronted by Krusty.........Nothing worse than biting your nails to make sure the costs are covered by sufficient attendance.

Although we may run a BW series this year we are focusing on OPPIV at Fort Drum and several other larger events south of the border. My teammates and I look forward to seeing many of you at other events in Ontario this year as well.

Have a great season!!

Big Red
CWO - Force Recon
Border Wars Series Planner

[whisper_kill]

A few years ago I had developed an online system for game management. Each person with an account on the system had a rating. If they flaked, their rating went down. The game hosts could set the tolerance level for their game. For example, say players are rated 1 through 10, 10 being perfect awesomeness... a game producer could for arguments sake disallow anyone trying to register with a 6 or lower for example. Players ratings would go back up as they attended games with lower tolerances, with no flaking. It was a nice, closed system but required a little more management by the game producers to ensure flakers were identified in the system accurately. Problem was, it costs $$$ to develop a system like this, and my team is completely booked.

If anyone with solid PHP and Database skills would like to work with me on the concept, I would be more than happy to move this concept forward, with input from the game producers in the area.

Just my .2

[talon]

I really enjoyed broadsword... The organization was flaky (where was the chicken??) but the venue was incredible, as were some of the pitched firefights. Good shooting. I was really excited for BWIII. I was planning on confirming when the game looked more solid (once the whole prepay thing happened). I think that when it did not overwhelmingly get prepaid for, people were in the same boat as me. I have to plan for time off at work as there is no regular schedule, and 100 dollars was a lot to spend on something I wasn't 100% sure on at that point. If the game was 60 or 70 percent confirmed quickly, I imagine it would have happened almost definitely.

[lt_poncho]

Broadsword certainly could have been a launching pad for something bigger (and potentially better); ironically a lot of posts about Broadsword have been deleted, so it's difficult to understand all the facts involved with how things came to be.

Blaming the 'lack of participation' is just like a marketing department blaming the consumer for not buying their product.

Personally I believe if there were more visibility and reliance into certain aspects that some feel were intentionally played down, as well as the inclusion of particular aspects of an event that are not specifically designed to attract first time players completely new to the sport, there would have likely been a lot more participation from a larger percentage of the community.

I think I mentioned before that it was 'Quality' not 'Quantity' that generally makes an event stand out; personally I couldn't care less how many players attended an event. Events should be planned from the ground up with that in mind - plan it so that it doesn't come down to a scenario where 'we need X attendance in order for game to happen' - if you are there you are there, if not you miss out.

Airsoft is a voluntary game, not conscription, no?

[Arnisador]

Originally Posted by lt_poncho

I think I mentioned before that it was 'Quality' not 'Quantity' that generally makes an event stand out; personally I couldn't care less how many players attended an event. Events should be planned from the ground up with that in mind - plan it so that it doesn't come down to a scenario where 'we need X attendance in order for game to happen' - if you are there you are there, if not you miss out.

THIS

[Brian McIlmoyle]

With you 100% Poncho,

Some venues, however require a certain participation to make it cost effective.

Few hosts can afford to float an event and then take a bath on the fixed costs of the venue.

Often events at "other use" facilities set a minimum revenue threshold and Game organizers are on the hook for that nut to get the game going.

For example FR requires 70+ paid players to get the field for exclusive use.. This is by all measures a pretty large game.. If I wanted to "reserve the field" I'd need to pony up $1800 and then hope I can sell the event.

Even TTAC3 has a Minimum participant threshold to make the use of space worth it ( and my time ) even though the best games always have fewer attendees of higher quality.

[DarkAngel]

Originally Posted by whisper_kill

If anyone with solid PHP and Database skills would like to work with me on the concept, I would be more than happy to move this concept forward, with input from the game producers in the area.

I had thought about developing something very similar. But my skills are in ASPX, MSSQL and .NET, im not very good at php.

[Zeonprime]

Originally Posted by lt_poncho

Broadsword certainly could have been a launching pad for something bigger (and potentially better); ironically a lot of posts about Broadsword have been deleted, so it's difficult to understand all the facts involved with how things came to be.

Blaming the 'lack of participation' is just like a marketing department blaming the consumer for not buying their product.

Personally I believe if there were more visibility and reliance into certain aspects that some feel were intentionally played down, as well as the inclusion of particular aspects of an event that are not specifically designed to attract first time players completely new to the sport, there would have likely been a lot more participation from a larger percentage of the community.

I think I mentioned before that it was 'Quality' not 'Quantity' that generally makes an event stand out; personally I couldn't care less how many players attended an event. Events should be planned from the ground up with that in mind - plan it so that it doesn't come down to a scenario where 'we need X attendance in order for game to happen' - if you are there you are there, if not you miss out.

Airsoft is a voluntary game, not conscription, no?

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

With you 100% Poncho,

Some venues, however require a certain participation to make it cost effective.

Few hosts can afford to float an event and then take a bath on the fixed costs of the venue.

Often events at "other use" facilities set a minimum revenue threshold and Game organizers are on the hook for that nut to get the game going.

For example FR requires 70+ paid players to get the field for exclusive use.. This is by all measures a pretty large game.. If I wanted to "reserve the field" I'd need to pony up $1800 and then hope I can sell the event.

Even TTAC3 has a Minimum participant threshold to make the use of space worth it ( and my time ) even though the best games always have fewer attendees of higher quality.

Both points, as stated above are accurate, numbers does not dictate awesome games, but fields require numbers to break even/turn a profit and most hosts take a loss just on running a game.

I for one look forward to a future canadian Border Wars event, went to the first two and enjoyed them. For all the glitches and issues, any game with that many players is bound to have issues, and knowing how the Host and officials handled those issues, I support the idea of a large scale event from Krusty and team in the future.

That being said. I am one voice, and while I can usually get 15-30 players from the dragons to committ to an event given enough notice and monetary planning, hosts coordinating with the teams for future large scale high risk ($$) events may be prudent to get the minimum player numbers needed.