Ban on "toy" guns in Toronto

[EN SABAH NUR]

YEEEEEAH! I'm over 18! Downtown streetside airsoft games coming up!...followed by my funeral. At least I'll die in style.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Dracheous

As much as I do agree with going after the crooks and not honest joe here... I do like the idea of having the law against 18 yearolds... cause then we don't have to put up with... "I'm a responsible 15 year old looking for some advice and a place to play"... and when told to wait three years.. he chances his profile age to 19!.... we just say.. "no... against law... nothing more..."... ... save us all some time and patiences

It already is.. against the law.. the criminal code.. No one under the age of 18 can have replica firearms in their possession. full stop, I can't figure out why people put up with minors now... they can't own airsoft.. so how can they participate!!!???

Also practically every municipality has laws against the discharge of air guns within city limits already. I bumped up against that one recently at my field south of Acton.. but turns out were we conduct our OPs is ok. It is only restricted .. not prohibited

All the proposed bylaw adds is that it would now be contrary to a bylaw for anyone under the age of 18 to have replica or imitation guns in their possession.. they don"t have to discharge them to be breaking the law.
It is already illegal.. but a fine is much more likley to be enforced than a criminal charge.

[Dracheous]

but kids use the excuse... "Its not illegal for me to use an airgun its only illegal for me to buy one until I'm 18..."... they use the term airgun... instead of replica... but anyway... that aside... the law also states that no one under 18 is legal to fire any firearm... if they uped it to airgun it'd force the airguns to go into the same category as say a .22 long rifle... BUT... if they did this... just put the age restriction and the use of said weapons REQUIRE direct supervision... sorta like the current law regarding minors hunting with parents that they have to share the rifle/shotgun and the parent has to be with in 50ft of the kid holding it... not just firing it... but carrying, handling, loading, un-loading...


Anyway... yeah... the fine will help greatly... I think... hope... but at the same time... someone pointed out the "soccer-mom" issue of trying to push the anty up...and try to ban them ALL for good... somethings gotta be done to help this gun control issue... but so far all I see are steps being taken to take guns from honest people...

Today it was announced on the radio that Ottawa's Gun Amnesty has recovered 500 guns total plus ammo... but what bothers me... is the Amnest is now closed... which is DUMB... why make two weeks of the year free to turn in guns?!... I mean... seriously if an owner wishes to dispose of his/her guns responsibility and quickly... then there should NOT be a god damn time set for it... one should be able to call up the cops ANY time of the freaking year and say... "Look... I just don't want the hassle anymore"... or what ever... but why are these laws and time sets and all this crap targeted at the guy who collects them!? or goes hunting with his kid?... or has the one his father gave whos fathers gave his father whos fathers father gave his... you get the idea right?... Where as here is the plain simple truth.. ban = more... if you want proof look at the alcohol ban in the 50's... the mob got rich... the people got so freaking wasted... and the police got killed!... THATS what we need... only now... its lethal shit...


so... all for 18+ regulations... not for laws and regulations leading to the disarming of honest people...

[DJ_Mittens]

What's even worse is that the majority of those guns are antiques and guns otherwise owned by responsible individuals. The ones that need to disappear, the illegal ones, are only found in seizures or in the hands of dead gang bangers.

[Jar|-|ead]

thats why US responsible ppl over 18 and verified and also retailers SHOULD ask for id EVERYTIME they sell..ask for 2 peices of ID..just to be sure..and i aint to worried im over 18 and i got an arsenel at my basement...so to you YOUNG fuckers out there..there probably spoiled too..BEWARE NOW...lol..

[enoh]

Originally Posted by Dracheous

ban = more... if you want proof look at the alcohol ban in the 50's... the mob got rich...

*clarification* it was the 20's (but good point, and the same could be said for the reefer too )

Originally Posted by Dracheous

... but why are these laws and time sets and all this crap targeted at the guy who collects them!?

Originally Posted by DJ_Mittens

What's even worse is that the majority of those guns are antiques and guns otherwise owned by responsible individuals. The ones that need to disappear, the illegal ones, are only found in seizures or in the hands of dead gang bangers.

I kind of agree, however... the thing you guys are missing is that these "gangbangers" (some of whom are in fact not dead upon the recovery of these weapons) are getting a lot of their guns by stealing them from the collectors.. or getting them from someone else who stole them. so it's really more of a complex issue than you're making it out to be. that being said, i don't really know how this thread about replica/toy gun by-laws turned into one about the debate over real firearms.. lol. but yeah, the by-law sounds like a good thing so far, and the problems expressed by others regarding the soccer-mom factor are shared by many, and are quite troubling

[Goldman]

I just don't understand why there is this sudden turn on replicas. Yes they are replicas and look real, but don't fire real rounds... How exactly is this a bad thing? If anything, I'd feel safer being mugged with a replica rather than a real steel pistol, that way if mr.criminal gets jumpy, I don't get dead.

I keep seeing the arguemnt of "what if a cop has to shoot a kid". Does anyone have a stat on if this has ever happened in Toronto? If the issue is gang bangers using them for crimes, fuck the gang bangers. If you knock over a 7/11 with your hand in your pocket looking like a firearm, your still charged with Armed Robbery, so why would replica's be any different?

Could someone please show me a rational argument, with facts behind it, about why replicas should be prohib in any form?

[boomer_1]

As someone from Scugog township where mayor pierce is from let me say they don't take this lightly, a friend at work had to pick her daughter up from north durham police station about two weeks ago after she was picked up for being in possesion of a replica gun. It cost her 300.00 in fines to boot. It works out to 150.00 for the kid and 150.00 for the parents, and syphen is right it goes for all guns. All the local toy stores had to remove any and all toys that looked like guns, except crappy tire who can still sell bb guns and such

[-Trooper-]

Why are we wasting our money on banning replica guns from kids under 18? This is not going to help solve the gun violence in our city, because if people have the money they will just buy a real gun instead of wasting their money on a replica one. And if any kid is stupid enough to bring a replica gun out with them they deserve to be shot.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Goldman

I just don't understand why there is this sudden turn on replicas. Yes they are replicas and look real, but don't fire real rounds... How exactly is this a bad thing? If anything, I'd feel safer being mugged with a replica rather than a real steel pistol, that way if mr.criminal gets jumpy, I don't get dead.

I keep seeing the arguemnt of "what if a cop has to shoot a kid". Does anyone have a stat on if this has ever happened in Toronto? If the issue is gang bangers using them for crimes, fuck the gang bangers. If you knock over a 7/11 with your hand in your pocket looking like a firearm, your still charged with Armed Robbery, so why would replica's be any different?

Could someone please show me a rational argument, with facts behind it, about why replicas should be prohib in any form?

Replicas already are prohibited.

the ban proposed is a municiple bylaw amendment to make it a offence punishable by a fine to be found with a replica if you are underage.

Can't see how this will affect adult responsible replica owners.

The current laws are written such that an abuse of possession of a replica, such as concealed carry, brandishing in public, use in a crime results in the same charge as if the gun was real. It is problermatic from a enforcment standpoint.
It is easy to stand here and say.. "Just shoot them" but the use of that level of force carries substantial ramifications. I don't think anyone here wants to live in a society that has police that shoot first and ask questions later.

When faced with to potential of a gun armed person, the decision to "take them down" is potentialy life changing.. we are not talking about a bb welt here.. which is likely the most serious wound most of the people here have had inflicted on them or inflicted on others.

How would you feel if you shot and killed someone who really had posed no threat? that could have been dealt with differently if they had been armed with a pointed stick instead of what looked like a lethal weapon?

I sure would not want to be a police officer faced with these situations.

[Goldman]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Replicas already are prohibited.

the ban proposed is a municiple bylaw amendment to make it a offence punishable by a fine to be found with a replica if you are underage.

Can't see how this will affect adult responsible replica owners.

The current laws are written such that an abuse of possession of a replica, such as concealed carry, brandishing in public, use in a crime results in the same charge as if the gun was real. It is problermatic from a enforcment standpoint.
It is easy to stand here and say.. "Just shoot them" but the use of that level of force carries substantial ramifications. I don't think anyone here wants to live in a society that has police that shoot first and ask questions later.

When faced with to potential of a gun armed person, the decision to "take them down" is potentialy life changing.. we are not talking about a bb welt here.. which is likely the most serious wound most of the people here have had inflicted on them or inflicted on others.

How would you feel if you shot and killed someone who really had posed no threat? that could have been dealt with differently if they had been armed with a pointed stick instead of what looked like a lethal weapon?

I sure would not want to be a police officer faced with these situations.

I don't think the level of force being used in a situation like that is nearly as underestimated as you make it out to be. I totally understand that shooting someone, can, and likely will change the life of the shooter forever, however at the same time, while I cannot speak on the belaf of police members, as I am not one, I don't agree with the view that shooting a criminal, who had a replica, would cause nearly as much severe psycological trauma as you imply.

As for the police shooting first and asking questions later... I don't have a problem with that. As I understand it, police officers can't just open fire simply because they feel threatened. They can only do so if they see a weapon, and even then there are specific rules. (ie: I think they are allowed to fire if someone is threatening them with a knife within 40 feet).

In these cases, its already established that the suspect has a weapon, and the officer is only going to fire if they don't put it down. So really the chances of a police officer shooting someone who is only carrying a replica are rather low, given that the suspect wold have to indicate their intention to fire, by either not dropping the replica, or by aiming at the officer, for the officer to fire. In fact, I don't see where the shoot first - questions later concept would come from. This isn't the wild west, where you draw on your dueling oppenent and fire first.

Honestly, this ban, as well as a number of other proposed things are just feel good legislation. Given that you already stated its illegal for a minor to have a replica, how is this by-law going to have any real effect? What purpose does it serve, other than burning city money being enforced on dollar-stores city wide?

[Goldman]

Ok, in repsonse to my own post.

Yes I underestimated the psycological effect killing someone over a replica can have, however I'd like to point out in my post, I never said kill, I said shot. It's two very different senario.

Also, when considering my post, note that I'm directly arguing against the ban, i'm not trying to make a statement or argument about any other subject. Be it gangs, minors, or shootings. Just the idea of this ban, by itself.

[talon]

Originally Posted by Goldman

Ok, in repsonse to my own post.

Yes I underestimated the psycological effect killing someone over a replica can have, however I'd like to point out in my post, I never said kill, I said shot. It's two very different senario.

Also, when considering my post, note that I'm directly arguing against the ban, i'm not trying to make a statement or argument about any other subject. Be it gangs, minors, or shootings. Just the idea of this ban, by itself.

You always shoot to kill though... That's one of the main philosophies of anyone allowed to bear arms and carry them to defend themselves or others (at least those whom I've talked to). So should a police officer fire on someone presenting them with a replica arm, I'd say odds are they're going to be put down for good. In any case, that's not really the point of the discussion..

I don't think that a ban would be a good idea at all. I don't know as much as I should about the legal system, but when it comes down to it, this sounds like it's leading to an eventual all-out ban of "replicas". I could see this as a first step in that direction, especially if they continue to be used in crime and continue to fool the police.

[Trinity-Renegade]

see see see here. A kid who shall kill with a gun even just in a game, shall find it fun. It a way of the pull the trigger and your effect is X10 more powerful.Evenm if it is just a gun. If the guy you "shoot" is like worming around, like a lot of kids do, he will fell empowered. I love phys

[enoh]

Originally Posted by Trinity-Renegade

see see see here. A kid who shall kill with a gun even just in a game, shall find it fun. It a way of the pull the trigger and your effect is X10 more powerful.Evenm if it is just a gun. If the guy you "shoot" is like worming around, like a lot of kids do, he will fell empowered. I love phys

umm, wtf?!