Airsoft takes out an eye

[kalnaren]

<accidental double post>

[thePiRaTE!!]

Originally Posted by Ibby

Er, no. Next you're going to tell us that pencils cause spelling mistakes.



May be, but it boils down to the individual's responsibility to take care of themselves. McDonalds doesn't make you fat. YOU make you fat...

Gah... I have to call you out on the cliche. Its better suited to the gun crimes in which it has been referenced several times in here alone.

Besides, its not just my opinion. What I had stated with regards to the fast food chains is in fact the reality of the situation currently. To relate it to your cliche - each hamburger is a 'spelling mistake' from a health stand point. Eaten in conjunction with a healthy diet - a hamburger here and there is not a problem, but not everyone understands this. Along with vast profits comes with the burden of the health decline they cause when overconsumed. Its why cars have seatbelts. The car doesn't crash, people crash, but they crash like that only in cars. Pencils don't make mistakes, people make mistakes, thats why pencil manufacturers take the responsibility of putting an eraser on the back. Hamburgers actually make people fat though, and McDonalds can't put a seatbelt or an eraser on it, so they need to tell the fat kid its bad for you, or at least tell him that maybe a salad would be a better side choice than the fries because the kid eats there everyday and they know that - they told him too.

Heres the cliche that I will use - the fleet only sails as fast as its slowest ship.

Eventually, the dumbest kid ever will hold an airsoft gun and I don't think its happened yet. It'll be like that moment when an ape first weilded a bone as a tool. I can hear the orchestra swelling. Imagine the wonders of legal trauma one really dumb kid and a full metal M4 AEG could cause. I want to know that when the legal ramifications of his grave failure to understand the point are sifted through, it wasn't that he got it so easily with no checks though an online retailer. You know the rest. I'm simply saying there is a responsibility to do things right. Allow me to continue:

I haven't purchased a Crossman product lately. What they should be doing is securing the gun in such a way that it is difficult to remove from the packaging without first being exposed to a clear warning as to the serious consequences of thier misuse. Then, they should be sold behind the gun counter, where a sales associate would who is properly educated to inform and verify the consumer, does so. This removes any doubt that you are dealing with a harmless toy. THEN, if Billy shoots out his eye, we as a nation of responsible users can't really be held accountable for how those who wander upon the sport misuse it. It really is mom and dads fault now, they are responsible and they were warned. Every possible measure of safety was taken. Its like a handrail on a bridge - you need to have it by law, but it still doesn't stop everyone from falling over, but you still need the rail. Lets make sure those who sell and distribute this sport at least put up the rail is all I'm saying. Hell, I'd like to see Airsoft distributed this way, if I knew it would be adhered to.



(ps have you seen 'Supersize Me'? ...classic)

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

Gah... I have to call you out on the cliche. Its better suited to the gun crimes in which it has been referenced several times in here alone.

Yep, I use it a lot in different cases. Why? It works in each one.

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

To relate it to your cliche - each hamburger is a 'spelling mistake' from a health stand point.

No, each hamburger is a pencil.

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

Eaten in conjunction with a healthy diet - a hamburger here and there is not a problem, but not everyone understands this.

Er, not everyone understand quantum physics. But in this day and age, if an individual can't figure out that an unhealthy diet is keeping them out of that swimsuit they want to wear, they probably also won't understand that they're likely to eventually be getting a Darwin award.

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

Eventually, the dumbest kid ever will hold an airsoft gun and I don't think its happened yet.

I think it has. Did you and I not read the same article?

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

You know the rest.

Er, to quote you:

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

but not everyone understands this.

Perhaps I don't. That's a pretty big assumtion.

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

I'm simply saying there is a responsibility to do things right.

Yes, you're right. But the retail industry isn't to blame in this case. Parents are. They bought the gun, not the 9 year old kid. They're responsible for the child, and his safety. I think there was a pretty big failure on the part of the parents. The retail industry isn't there to spood feed consumers about every little safety aspect of what it is they're buying. I went and bought a bag of sandblasting sand last week. The bag didn't have any "don't point the sandblaster nozzle at your face" warnings. The guy at the counter didn't ask me for ID or give me a safety brief. It's assumed I know what I'm doing with the item at hand, which I do. If I didn't, there's all sorts of training out there.

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

THEN, if Billy shoots out his eye, we as a nation of responsible users can't really be held accountable for how those who wander upon the sport misuse it.

Er, we're not as a nation of responsible users held accountable as it is. Is a nation of responsible users accountable for every retard that gets nailed for DUI? Lots of folks misuse alcohol. It's not the "nation's" or the brewer's/distiller's fault.

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

(ps have you seen 'Supersize Me'? ...classic)

Yes, and I've also seen another documentary done the same way, where a female doctor goes on the same diet. The name of it escapes me offhand. She manages to lose weight, and remain rather healthy from eating McDonald's. Why did the other dude balloon up? Remember, he said "yes" to every "would you like to supersize that?" That's a lot of spelling mistakes. The doctor didn't. She picked her meals a bit more carefully, and ended up much better off.

It'll be interesting to see what comes of this case though, regarding the kid with the damaged eye. If this were the US, you can bet that the parents would be blaming everyone but themselves. There'd likely be lawsuits to the store, the gun manufacturer, etc. But here in Canada we generally don't have our own Stella Awards (look them up, and shake your head in disbelief). Although it seems to me we're headed in that direction, we don't need tort reform just yet up here. Why? I'd like to think it's because we have a bit of common sense, and can handle being responsible for our actions. But like I mentioned, due to people south of the border directing blame elsewhere, and the media who seems to extol the virtues of multi-million dollar lawsuits, we seem to be headed in that direction as well.

[thePiRaTE!!]

Originally Posted by Ibby

Er, we're not as a nation of responsible users held accountable as it is. Is a nation of responsible users accountable for every retard that gets nailed for DUI? Lots of folks misuse alcohol. It's not the "nation's" or the brewer's/distiller's fault.

Trying to be as neutral as possible here. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying everyone should be smart enough to never do anything dumb and if they hurt themselves in the course of excersing dumb, then its their fault alone. I'll will agree so far as the dumb only hurts itself and at no point becomes a burden to me. If Billy shoots out his own eye and not my kids.

I quoted you above to outline how very much so, brewers and the nation are held accountable for the actions of those who abuse alcohol everyday. There are warnings on the product, limitations upon whom its sold and trained staff that are _supposed_ to cut you off at the bar. The police to whom we as a nation pay taxes to afford are trained to watch out for the dumb once it tries to drive itself home drunk when it doesn't get cut-off, and to setup checkstops to catch it before it gets us hurt. This is what I'm advocating for Crossman if indeed the problem is as rampant as the article would have us believe.

At the risk of repeating myself, there needs to be a more reliable system in place to help limit the possibility of careless injury. Mostly its just a need to educate the public so Billys parents aren't as careless to begin with. Parents would do a better job mitigating risks they understood. Better packaging and distribution as outlined above is all I'm suggesting. Dumb must be accounted for or it hurts itself *and others*. If I sell you the risk, its my job to properly prepare you for it. Thats my view and I'm entitled to it!

Dont take this as escalation - If you still disagree, thats ok, but please don't isolate specific instances of my terminology to distract from the point (hamburger = pencil, et al). Thats just flame fuel. Thanks.

[kalnaren]

But the retail industry isn't to blame in this case. Parents are. They bought the gun, not the 9 year old kid. They're responsible for the child, and his safety. I think there was a pretty big failure on the part of the parents.

And that, I believe, is the main issue here. Is this not another reason we don't let those under 18 have airsoft guns? Kids are stupid. They don't have the mental capacity to understand what it is they're doing. It's the parents' job to do it for them, not the retailers.

[Shrike]

Who's job is it to educate the parents?

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by thePiRaTE!!

Dont take this as escalation - If you still disagree, thats ok, but please don't isolate specific instances of my terminology to distract from the point (hamburger = pencil, et al). Thats just flame fuel. Thanks.

I don't disagree, but I think there's plenty of warning labels and such already. I was at both Walmart and Canadian Tire today. At both places, the crapsoft is clearly labelled as being sold to 18+ people only. Clue #1. in the packaging of even the shittiest crapsoft (I bought an absolute stain of a gun from San Deigo's, just for fun) are all sorts of warnings not to shoot it at people, or in your eye, or at your pets. There was even a little pamphlet inside the box with the same warnings. How many more does society need? If the parents missed all this, then yes, they're at fault and should clearly roast as a result. If you thin there should be more, you're going to have a tough time lobbying for it to happen.

And yes, the hamburger is still a pencil. The person eating it is making a spelling mistake

[kalnaren]

Originally Posted by Shrike

Who's job is it to educate the parents?

It's the parents' job to ensure they're aware of everything they need to be aware of. It's the retailer's job to ensure that this information is readily available. It's not a car dealer's job to make sure customers read the car's owner's manual, but simply to make sure that manual is available.

[Macs13]

Something is bothering me about where the blame is landing in this thread.

When I was nine I knew how to read. I might have had some trouble with Shakespeare, or Bible passages, but things like "Danger", "Warning" and "Caution" were all words I understood. I also listened when my parents told me something like "Be careful", "Don't touch that", or "Go put your goggles on before you go out and play with your friends and the bb-guns".

We don't have the whole story here, but everyone's cast the parents in a horrible light. It wasn't like the Mom just handed her Son a loaded gun, turned around and thought about what colour to paint her bed-room.

Are the parents free of guilt in this situation? Certainly not, but they shouldn't bear the whole blame, and neither should the companies manufacturing and selling the guns.

Parental responsibility can only go so far. Could she have forced her son to wear the goggles, sure, but at some point the child has a judgement-call to make. 'Mom told me to wear them, but I don't like them, they get foggy and itch, so I'm not gonna' Doesn't matter when that call is made, before he goes out or after he's already out there playing, and once he takes them off it's his own damned fault. He was told.

Now you could argue that in that case he shouldn't have been playing airsoft at all, and I agree with you. If the child isn't going to follow the rules, then he or she shouldn't be playing, but you can't pin that all on the parents. I know plently of people that ignore rules they're told explicitly on fields, and all of them are over the age of majority. What does that make them? Morons. What does that make the kid? The same. Is it the parent's fault? Partly, but I don't think it's time to break out the cross and nails for them just yet.

[Dr_Tinshnipz]

I'm leaning towards the parents mistake side, as the first page in this thread someone mentioned Russel Peters " White people please beat your kids" When I was a kid I had a pellet gun, my dad told me to only shoot cans and wear the goggles that came with it. Of course I didn't wear the goggles, my dad came out and gave me a couple good smacks and took the gun away. Wasn't allowed to use it for a month and then only under supervision of my dad and wearing goggles. The point is ... Beat your kids seriously. After those smacks I never really dis-obeyed my dad again until I hit my teen years.

[kalnaren]

Originally Posted by Macs13

Something is bothering me about where the blame is landing in this thread.

When I was nine I knew how to read. I might have had some trouble with Shakespeare, or Bible passages, but things like "Danger", "Warning" and "Caution" were all words I understood. I also listened when my parents told me something like "Be careful", "Don't touch that", or "Go put your goggles on before you go out and play with your friends and the bb-guns".

We don't have the whole story here, but everyone's cast the parents in a horrible light. It wasn't like the Mom just handed her Son a loaded gun, turned around and thought about what colour to paint her bed-room.

Are the parents free of guilt in this situation? Certainly not, but they shouldn't bear the whole blame, and neither should the companies manufacturing and selling the guns.

Parental responsibility can only go so far. Could she have forced her son to wear the goggles, sure, but at some point the child has a judgement-call to make. 'Mom told me to wear them, but I don't like them, they get foggy and itch, so I'm not gonna' Doesn't matter when that call is made, before he goes out or after he's already out there playing, and once he takes them off it's his own damned fault. He was told.

Now you could argue that in that case he shouldn't have been playing airsoft at all, and I agree with you. If the child isn't going to follow the rules, then he or she shouldn't be playing, but you can't pin that all on the parents. I know plently of people that ignore rules they're told explicitly on fields, and all of them are over the age of majority. What does that make them? Morons. What does that make the kid? The same. Is it the parent's fault? Partly, but I don't think it's time to break out the cross and nails for them just yet.

These kids were using toys designed for 18 year-olds. They never should have had them in the first place. Parents' fault there. This kid made a calll not to wear his goggles and paid for it dearly, but that choice never should have been up to him.

[DeathSniper]

I think the point some people are trying to bring up is that yes, while these "toys" are *supposed* (read - supposed) to and intended for 18+ use - they are often not and ARE in fact, marketed towards the young teenage adolescent age-group. I'm sure plenty of us have seen it in stores just lying around on the rack; while some stores may have it under lock and key, most do not. I've seen kids that I think are 13 or 14 buy it with no problem, and no one says a thing to them. While parents do take a certain responsibility over the kids, so does everyone up the chain with them - they need to put in the proper safeguards to REDUCE the amount of accidents/danger that the end consumer is exposed to. It's not fair, it's not 'right', but unfortunately it's the way it is...

There's a reason why there's so much "health-conscious" food being advertised today and why beer ads always display 'Don't drink and drive' and 'Use alcohol responsibly'...

[Afya]

I just got in and skipped about half the posts but here's by oppinion;

The blame spreads all over and not just on the kid who lost his eye, the parents, and the kid's friends. The parents didn't watch the kid, the kid didn't listen to his parents, older kids at the kids school present a bad example, a lot of TV shows present a bad example, TV and Videogames say "You get killed you comeback to life at a save point. You get hurt you cast a spell and heal yourself."

.... I belive one asked "Who's job is it to educate the parents?" um... parent counselor, parenting classes, Dr.Phil (he's good), other parents give advice .............. the kids do so very well THEY TEACH THE PARENTS HOW TO BE MANIPULATED!!!! "Mommy, I need new shoes."..."Daddy, I need a moter bike."..."I hate you!!!" The kids say I hate you and most parents try to make the kid happy even if it means giving in

[Skruface]

I put the blame solely and completely on the friend's parents.

It is their responsibility to monitor the children, as they have accepted the position of caregiver. In the legal world, it's known as "in loco parentis", or "in the place of the (absent) parent.

It is their responsibility to check to make sure the toys they buy their children to play with (and to play with other children) are safe.

It is their responsibility to monitor the children to ensure they play safely.

You can't give a 9 year old kid something like a bb gun/sharp stick/cattle prod/lighter and say "Now make sure you play safe" and walk away, absolving yourself of responsibility.

It's the fault of the parents. End of statement.

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by Ibby

Er, no. Next you're going to tell us that pencils cause spelling mistakes.



May be, but it boils down to the individual's responsibility to take care of themselves. McDonalds doesn't make you fat. YOU make you fat...

Debate THAT with Prince Charles! Heard last month (or earlier this month) he was advocating the banning of McDonalds from the UK (bet the Scots were pissed that history is repeating itself........... oops, wrong topic).