Retailers supporting the +18 rule

[nizfiz]

^That's cool, making it difficult is fine and smart. It's just making it impossible that scares me.

Are most young people really idiots? I'd say one can find idiots anywhere and in any age group.

[Rumpel Felt]

Exactly.

As for legal, trust me....experience in the day told me the cops give as much shit about an airsoft gun as they do about J-walking or someone not wearing a helmet on a bike who is under 18.

If someone under 18 fucks up, it's their parents mess to clean up so who the hell cares?

The only problem I see is if some soccer mom decides to go apeshit and get attention called to airsoft when junior shoots out brother Billy's eyes.

[nizfiz]

I'm curious has the so called soccer mom going apeshit to get airsoft banned ever happened? I hear about that scenario all the time but have there really been any big incidents with airsoft in Canada?

[ATREYU]

Originally Posted by GraveTech

By setting the age limit we are restricting the number of stupid incidences that occur, thus limiting bad exposure.

Sorry GT, but to present another point of view here... (not saying you are wrong either), but if an "adult" gets dumb... then airsofters as a whole look bad.... and feeds the publics perception that we are war loving nutcases. At leats when a minor does it... it can be chalked up to "immaturity".

I understand the argument that if they were truly mature they could wait the additional years but there's a number of individuals who are well beyond the 'legal' age involved that are buying for themselves and don't deserve to own a water pistol let alone an airsoft gun. No verification system is going to prevent those morons from getting their hands on guns.

tsuru, you hit the nail head on! Becoming 18 is not a right of passage - it's merely a number that our society has lumped on itself to be able to make people legally accountbale to itself - for the purposes of prosecutions, lawsuits, etc, when people do dumb things. As I've said in a previous thread, you can stay home alone at 12, run away from home at 14, quit school and start driving at 16, etc - all before you become 18. Personally, I'm more afraid of some kid driving "daddy's" car than a kid with an airsoft gun.

To put it another way, is a man who uses an airsoft gun to rob a bank anymore mature than a kid of 12 years old? Who would you be more concerned with? What about the guy the Toronto police shot in the hospital emerg? Would you abdicate giving him an airsoft gun because he's over 18? No, because he's mentally unstable? Perhaps, but you'd need to get to know him to be able to say that. Same goes for young people, you can't group all of the minors together when you don't know them. I know a player that is under 18, and not only is he mature, I've seen him be a real pain to the opposing team at games! There is no maturity scale to measure a persons level of mental fitness on.

Oh, how about being able to join the military at 16 now?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we use "real steel" in th CF?

I'm not for or against action of any kind to the retailers, I'm only trying to present an alternate viewpoint.

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by Greylocks

Want to drink booze, do drugs, drive, or whatever? Go for it. But I wont supply you with the means to do it. So stop asking us to allow you to do something illegal. It's rude on your part and unfair to all the other folks here.

Getting back to my original position from several hours ago (sorry, work). What I was asking before that I think may have encouraged nizfiz a bit was that which do you guys see as worse, having to play alongside all of these so called "immature" minors, possibly even taking one under your proverbial wing as you would any other noob, or sending him away to find some other form of "fun" that he can have with his new $400 toy.

And if you guys really want to bring drinking and drugs and driving into it, sure why not.

Would you prefer there to be an organization (CAA and affiliates) that takes 14 year old kids with their learner's permits or whatever the hell it is now and teaches them to drive by instructing them and working with them. Or do you think it would be better to hand them the manual and the keys and say "Have fun!"

And would you prefer that there were organizations (AADAC, schools...etc) that could talk to teens about drinking and drugs before or while they take them. People to educate them about the possible problems and hazards associated with alcohol and drugs. Or do you think it would be better to just stick to the 18+ rules in liquor stores and just turn a blind eye to some dousche who happens to boot for some minors.

Personally if "society" thinks that it's ok to give 16 year old kids CARS! I don't think even the "danger" of airsoft is anywhere close to the destructive power of a vehicle.

And what's this crap about voting? They aren't 18 so they can't vote, fair enough, but comparitively according to your arguements (to clarify, not directly but when used in this circumstance) they shouldn't have anything to do with politics at all either??

A good friend of mine (who is now 19 and plays airsoft as much as I do) was a competitive speed shooter at 16!!! With Real Guns!!!!! yet according to all of you assuming he was still the same age he wouldn't be allowed to play with Fake Guns!!! because you all decided so?

Anyways that's about all I've got and I'm sorry if I anger anyone, I'm just trying to open your minds a little since you all seem dead set on your case.

[Jester6]

Vipamave wrote:

Theres the chinese FOBs who think they are all powerful and mighty.

and then....

Theres the brown gangster-wannabes
-----
Lots of FOB and brown gangs here (specifically chinese and east-indian, I already know of 6 within Milliken Mills High via a conversation with the principle, K. Merryweather)

Racism or not, I (nor anyone else I know) have not been threatened with "This guy wants to get shot" by a white kid (Even the spoiled ones that own an airsoft pistol). Could just be this area (Where caucasian students are a minority) but even when I lived back in the US (where caucasian students are the majority), very little gang-related violence was evident.

You may be right that around your area there's a problem, but to lump all brown or chinese people under one "gangster" wannabes is just wrong. I think you should really rethink what you are saying here. Color of skin, race doesn't matter period.

[Captain Tenneal]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

Getting back to my original position from several hours ago (sorry, work). What I was asking before that I think may have encouraged nizfiz a bit was that which do you guys see as worse, having to play alongside all of these so called "immature" minors, possibly even taking one under your proverbial wing as you would any other noob, or sending him away to find some other form of "fun" that he can have with his new $400 toy.

And if you guys really want to bring drinking and drugs and driving into it, sure why not.

Would you prefer there to be an organization (CAA and affiliates) that takes 14 year old kids with their learner's permits or whatever the hell it is now and teaches them to drive by instructing them and working with them. Or do you think it would be better to hand them the manual and the keys and say "Have fun!"

And would you prefer that there were organizations (AADAC, schools...etc) that could talk to teens about drinking and drugs before or while they take them. People to educate them about the possible problems and hazards associated with alcohol and drugs. Or do you think it would be better to just stick to the 18+ rules in liquor stores and just turn a blind eye to some dousche who happens to boot for some minors.

Personally if "society" thinks that it's ok to give 16 year old kids CARS! I don't think even the "danger" of airsoft is anywhere close to the destructive power of a vehicle.

And what's this crap about voting? They aren't 18 so they can't vote, fair enough, but comparitively according to your arguements (to clarify, not directly but when used in this circumstance) they shouldn't have anything to do with politics at all either??

A good friend of mine (who is now 19 and plays airsoft as much as I do) was a competitive speed shooter at 16!!! With Real Guns!!!!! yet according to all of you assuming he was still the same age he wouldn't be allowed to play with Fake Guns!!! because you all decided so?

Anyways that's about all I've got and I'm sorry if I anger anyone, I'm just trying to open your minds a little since you all seem dead set on your case.

He may have shot the guns; but he legally did not own them, nor could he have aquired any new ones. Airsoft SHOULD be the same way. I'm not saying there are exceptions; there are plenty of them.

But when you have a shitload of new players who can't seem to grasp the idea of research or even minor effort, and then turn around and shit on anyone who tries and points them in the right direction, then i'm not surprised that we don't all seem dead set on not allowing minors, let alone 'taking them under our wings'. Yes, there is the occasional good apple amongst the barrel full of rotting ones, but when the rotting outnumber the good, it's very hard to paint a positive picture on the youth of today.

A car is one thing; a replica of a firearm is another. Airsofters are watching airsofters backs to keep airsoft alive in canada. Cars will never be banned and the same thing with Paintball (it's already a sport for godsakes). Airsoft however IS in a grey zone and could easilly be abolished if some fuckhead tries something stupid with a cop, then some soccer mom goes and starts a shitstorm over it. It's not that hard to imagine.

Personally I don't normally give a rats ass about somebody until they prove that they're actually worth the time and effort and have a WILLINGNESS TO LEARN.

[Fluffy]

The color of the people doesn't matter that's just the color they happen to be.

I happen to live in a yellow house, but some people say it's more of a cream off-white color, the color of the house doesn't matter it's still my house.

It's one way to describe things, I'm sure it wasn't a personal attack

[Fluffy]

How do you know if they have this "willingness to learn" if you turn them away at the door?

(oh and several of the guns were his, the rest were his father's)

[thephenom]

But I think the main point of the whole supporting 18+ rule is that when a person is 18, he/she can be held LEGALLY responsible for their doings. Anything goes wrong at a field, they can be PERSONALLY be held responsible, and not their parents.

YES, their parents can agree to take responsibility for their children's actions, but HEY, in reality, it's easier to point fingers to other people/things than to take the blame for your children's actions. (Just look at the bs examples of people/parents blaming violence on video games) I'm not saying all parents are like that, there are some responsible ones, but it can't be said for all of them.

And gosh, this is turning out to be an ethics debate. lol

[Captain Tenneal]

Okay; IIRC Canadian gun laws prohibit gun sales to minors (if not the guns, then at least the ammunition). No ifs, ands or buts.

"Willingness to learn" is a trait that is very easy to put to the forefront. Put effort into something you're going to spend several hundred dollars into. Don't as stupid questions and don't bitch back. It's that simple. I'm still a noob, but I don't talk back to people, especially if they're offering helpful information.

Whereas.. Almost every single day ASC is flooded with stupid questions like 'Wot Am Best Gun!?11' and 'Can I import from USA???'. You'd think that if you're buying a hundred dollars or more for a gun that you could at LEAST check if it's going to make it into the country. Even the caveat emptor of not guaranteeing the item arriving in Canada should make one wonder.

And as far as turning people away at the door; I reinterate. The youth of today are on the whole, stupid and untrustworthy. I don't like painting the picture, but unfortunately it gets painted by itself. I don't mind the fact that airsoft is turning away possibly the one good person in the crowd of morons (if he was a good airsofter he'd probably actually follow the advice and procure the guns when he's actually of age to do it), it not only protects airsoft's future, but weeds out the morons and gangstas as they'll probably take up something more unsavory in the meantime.

[sarcastro]

Ok I've read all the posts in this thread, many good many bad. Now perhaps I can help shed some light on the subject if not the reason for the 18+ rule. As a child and young adult your body is developing, growing and changing this also pertains to the brain and it's reasoning, judgement and other skills. There have been extensive studies done on the subject. As a child and especially as a teenager with the added stress of puberty and a sudden influx of hormones your body is not used to dealing with, the developing brain is not always capable of properly assessing a particular situation, scenario, outcome etc.
As a result of this judgement can be impaired (for lack of a better term) This is one of the prime reasons behind the young offenders act, kids do stupid things because your brain doesn't necessarily know how to properly assess and understand the possible consequences of your actions. The law takes this into account and does not necessarily want to "brand" you a criminal for the rest of your life for a youthful indiscretion, however no one wants to see personal or public safety put at risk because of a lack of foresight on a person or groups behalf so restrictions can be placed upon that person or persons. Hence no drivers licence until 16 even then there can still be restrictions, no drinking until the chosen age of your Province and no purchasing, owning, or unsupervised use of airguns or replicas.

A very quick and obvious possible scenario, Police get a gun call (what prompted the call really doesn't matter the police response will be the same) they tell the person to drop the gun, the person is a 16 year old, he took his new airsoft ak90k asswupper signature series he is so excited about to show a friend, he is surprised at the fuss the police seem to be making and thinks there must be some misunderstanding and doesn't want to drop his brand new asswupper on the pavement and possibly break it. He turns to explain to the police and inadvertently points the gun without thinking, the officer has no choice but to interpret this as threat and failure to comply, to protect himself and fellow officers he shoots the boy.
This kid didn't intentionally do anything wrong, but he did a lot of wrong things and ended up in a situation that killed him and could potentially kill airsoft. Parents groups outraged over the senseless death and similar one in another community not to mention the U.S. lobby their members of parliament to ban these useless guns that have no redeeming quality and are getting their perfect children killed.

We've read it here a thousand times, I know I'm under age BUT I just want to play in my yard with some friends, my neighbours know me and there cool they'd never call the cops.
I know I'm under age BUT I live in the country and the cops don't care.
WTF me and some friends were just going to skirmish in the woods out of town and we kept our guns hidden until we just about got there and the cops showed up and confiscated our guns WTF.

I realize the shooting scenario could just as easily happen to a careless or ignorant adult, the difference is if a adult is shot there is not going to be the same public outcry as when it happens to a child, why ? because as a society we are expected to look out for and protect the children as they can not be held responsible for their actions unlike adults. And until you are 18 under the law you are considered a child in this country like it or not, because you don't necessarily have the ability to make the right choices and so someone else is responsible for your ass. If you're over 18 and make a bad choice, tough luck deal with it.

And perhaps that is why legally you have to be 18+ to purchase or own a airgun or a replica gun, and if you're under 18 you need adult supervision any time you wish to use one.

The law and rules have to cover the majority not the minority and the majority of under 18 do not necessarily have the skills to make certain decisions, that doesn't mean a 15 yr old can't show proper judgement it's just not necessarily the norm.

I hope this is coherent as I've been up for 23 hrs and I may not be conveying my thoughts as clearly as desired.

[Greylocks]

Fluffy and others. The primary problem here is underage players who decide to break the rules. They tend to whine the most too.

If a 16 year old teenager does the following; gets parental consent, gets parental direct supervision, has his/her parents buy and retain property of the guns at all other times, there is NO problem. Those guys DO play, they have no problems at all.
What we see here the most are kids who dont do any of this.

We see kids who manage to lie to get a gun, then expect us to welcome them with open arms. If we dont, we're big meanies and they scream they will go play anywhere they want. Those are the kids I have a problem with. They shove their problems on the back of someone else and get off with a slap on the wrist.

Adults who do the same? Yeah, there's a fair amount of those too. I have a super simple solution for that; 911. Let the legally allowed experts deal with them. They cope with the consequences of their own screw ups.

Now can all of you kids TRY to follow the existing rules AND play instead of trying to find loopholes? If you follow the rules, there will be NO PROBLEM.

[Skruface]

Originally Posted by nizfiz

I'm curious has the so called soccer mom going apeshit to get airsoft banned ever happened? I hear about that scenario all the time but have there really been any big incidents with airsoft in Canada?

Yup. I can give you 3 serious incidents in Manitoba alone inthe last 10 years.

We had a kid (17) a couple of years back before the 18+ rule who got ahold of a GBB. When his mom found it she went apeshit. She found out about our local association and looked up one of the members - not even the one who sold her kid the gun - and went to his place of business and started screaming at him in the middle of a public mall about how he could condone selling illegal weapons to minors. She did this in front of dozen of witnesses and could have cost this person their job. She was set to call the cops and have him arrested in his place of work.

Additionally, a few years back we had the police pick up a kid (18 ) who decided it would be a good idea to take his Mac10 airsoft into his girlfriend's apartment under his coat. A neighbor saw, called the cops, and the two of them were picked up by the cops as they left her apartment to head to dinner with her parents, IIRC.

Then, of course, there was the (now banned) ASC member 2 years back that got busted with a substantial airsoft collection while they were dealing large quantities of dope. You can, of course, look up all these threads using the search button.

[Lawdog]

The underlying problem is simple. Minors present a significant legal risk for the owners and occupiers of the property, the organizers of the game, and other players. If a minor gets seriously injured at an airsoft event, someone is likely to have to pay big.

Waivers do not reduce this risk for having a minor participate, no matter who signed it. Having the parent on site with the child reduces the risk, but does not eliminate it.

Is there some compelling reason I should risk my house, car and investments so an underage player can participate in this sport?

LD