Retailers supporting the +18 rule

[Affliction]

Originally Posted by bean

Hes like batman but in the legal sense. Every time a thread about somethings legalities you pop up.

You know... I've been thinking the exact same thing for quite a while.

+1 LawDog

Back to the topic...

Something really should be done about places (Such as Kuramae at Pacific Mall) selling airsoft guns to minors. As long as people continue to be unlawful in this manor, nobody wins. (Except of course those pricks that sell it to make a quick buck)

[Gerkraz]

If a kid is serious about airsoft, he will understand what he needs to do to be able to play, he will understand that he may get turned away, and he won't bitch about it. There shouldn't be any of this talk about "turning away one good apple among thousands of rotted ones"...if the kid realy is a good apple, he'll come back with his parents, who will be in posession of the airsoft guns, and will remain at the game to supervise...or he'll wait until he's 18+ and won't have a problem with it.

Changing laws around won't help anything, imho, because people always find a way around it, and because of the nature of the sport (ZOMG, gunzzz FTW!!!11!) kids will always do stupid things. Adults will too, but at least then they're doing it legally and the responsability falls on them.

The best we can do is just refuse to play with kids, refuse to sell kids our guns and remind our friends/contacts about this fact.

[Greylocks]

To answer DEA.
First, thank you for posting, and thank you for making it clear that you too can get fooled.
The removal from the retailer list that I was suggesting is not something that would be done lightly. It would really suck to be removed because some kid lied to you or got a buddy to lie for them.
You, as a retailer, can only do so much. You can check the original buyer, but what happens later is out of your hands and not your fault. It cant be your fault.
If, however, a retailer became infamous for selling directly to minors (and there was documented proof of that), then I'd support a removal.

Still, it was not a practical idea; nobody can really check over a retailer's shoulder.

I just wish all newbies, of any age, would bother to read the Information section instead of doing anything stupid, but that has not happened yet.

[604DA9]

Wow this thread got huge fast!

Majority of us retailers take the necessary steps to ensure that we're selling to people who are 18+ years of age.

Here at Specarms we have been requiring customers who buy Airguns (accessories don't apply) to fill out a Waiver and also to produce a valid picture ID. We do this for Online Customers across Canada and for the local walk-ins as well.

99% of people are fine with jumping through hoops. But when that 1% doesn't agree / or refuses to fax/email us their ID, then we know something is up

But the bottom line, there are responsible underage people out there, and there are irresponsible of age people out there.

It's very difficult to filter out the people that we don't want to sell to.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by 604DA9

Here at Specarms we have been requiring customers who buy Airguns (accessories don't apply) to fill out a Waiver and also to produce a valid picture ID. We do this for Online Customers across Canada and for the local walk-ins as well.

99% of people are fine with jumping through hoops. But when that 1% doesn't agree / or refuses to fax/email us their ID, then we know something is up

Having just recently jumped through said fiery hoops, I can say that they'd probably deter most irresponsible parents. :lol:

incidents like the kid getting shot at his school in the US because he was usin a GBB to threaten police...not to mention, in bowmanville(near toronto), just a few months ago there was a GBB incident at a school.
We can all find piles of reason for underagers not to play.
But we get undragers comming here and wanting guns..when we say no, they mouth off and go buy one from a retailer.
I dont mind minors. One of the best people I play on the field with is a minor, but he came, read and earned respect. he didnt argue the rules. He proved himself and now buys and sells(and plays) regularly.

Id like to see retailers stick to the +18 more strickly. Minors can get guns, and they can get them here. earn the respect of people here and have someone sponsor them and buy stuff for them over ASC where it can be monitored.

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by Droc

incidents like the kid getting shot at his school in the US because he was usin a GBB to threaten police...not to mention, in bowmanville(near toronto), just a few months ago there was a GBB incident at a school.
We can all find piles of reason for underagers not to play.

Many of you are not understanding what I'm trying to say here.

first off, insurance is a moot point. Personally I think that would be up to the venue not the club to have correct? Where I play our club/s don't allow for minors to play with us, but the same venue where we play allows one night every two weeks for a club comprising of all people under age. (I think the organizer is the oldest at 16.

Second, what do either of those incedents that Droc spoke of have to do with letting underage people play the game? They have to do with stupid kids who have already aquired guns, it is completely irrelevant if they play in a club once a week or not. If anything the other members of the club would have instructed them of the dangers of these actions.

All I was saying from the very beginning is that if we turn away kids who already have guns, they WILL find other places to use them. Which is the whole problem!

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

[Lawdog]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

Many of you are not understanding what I'm trying to say here.

first off, insurance is a moot point. Personally I think that would be up to the venue not the club to have correct? Where I play our club/s don't allow for minors to play with us, but the same venue where we play allows one night every two weeks for a club comprising of all people under age. (I think the organizer is the oldest at 16.

Second, what do either of those incedents that Droc spoke of have to do with letting underage people play the game? They have to do with stupid kids who have already aquired guns, it is completely irrelevant if they play in a club once a week or not. If anything the other members of the club would have instructed them of the dangers of these actions.

All I was saying from the very beginning is that if we turn away kids who already have guns, they WILL find other places to use them. Which is the whole problem!

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

I see what you are getting at. However, none of the "underaged rights" folks seem to be able to answer the question: "Why should a rational adult risk his house/car/income to allow minors to play?"

PS- the insurance question is never moot.

LD

[Affliction]

Anyways, I just went to Kuramae earlier today with my gf.

Everything is still expensive as ever ($75 for a M16 mag) and they're still willing to sell airsoft to minors.

Pacific Mall irritates me.
-VM

[TCLP]

I will admit to saying that people my age are morons (im 17 by the way) and I actually agree with what most of the adults are trying to say. If a place allows you to play under 18 then just act mature enough to allow the others in the future to be able to play under 18.

As well Airsoft is a Milsim game and the last time I checked 99.99% of all armed forces are 18+, so if some one says why cant I play under 18? ans: well you cant join the army, so why can you play a spin off mil sport.

I did however start at the age of 16 and I have been invited to play with clubs that have really strict age requirements just because of the maturity I have shown on the field. I to just last week got my first gun. Ive been part of this sport for 10 months, and it has treated me very well. And to say the least I really like alot of what greylocks posts for noobs because the best thing you can do is wait read and learn, and when you get the chance to prove maturity take it. Unlike playing in a park with no protection in the middle of the day, or waving a can tire pistol in front of a police station. The second one I have seen happen twice and that is why this sport needs a little protection from the morons.
sorry for making this long and hopefully this made sense.

[nizfiz]

I'm not here to start a fight again but just to say that you can join the Armed Forces at 16 with parental consent, the reserves anyway. You get to handle real firearms, grenades... the whole bit. Also, milsim is just that, a simulation, as in not the real thing, people won't die.

[surebet]

Look, we've been over this. Boohoo, other people can do stuff totally unrelated to the debated topic. Your point?

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by Lawdog

I see what you are getting at. However, none of the "underaged rights" folks seem to be able to answer the question: "Why should a rational adult risk his house/car/income to allow minors to play?"

PS- the insurance question is never moot.

LD

Fair enough, insurance I will definitely agree is not moot, however when the venue allows for underage people to play, but some of the clubs using the venue don't, it just seems that the insurance aspect doesn't play as large a roll as it would elsewhere.

I must also add that I am speaking with regards to the knowledge from only my local clubs and venues (not to give them a bad name). Many of you continue to argue points that I see as different from my actual question here.

Why is it that when the venue allows for underage people to play, they have parental consent, and will obviously find a way to obtain AEG/GBB's. That the individual clubs will still refuse to let them play?

It just seems to me that clubs that are trying to 'force' kids to stay away from airsoft for a few years are (indirectly) encouraging them to act in an uninformed and stupid manner. Especially when the only thing stopping this kid from playing is the one guy (and/or his buddies) that stand up before a game and dictate what's ok and what isn't, including the fact that minors can't play for 'ANY' reason. Even though the guy behind the desk/counter (of the venue) couldn't care less?

Clubs can turn away whoever they want. There is more to minors then just being underage and owning a gun, there is maturity and comfort levels...Mostly though, its the guns. The fact that they DO find ways to get guns, is a problem. We dont want guns in the hands of minors. Its simply not right. Its risky and its a bad image overall.

And your totally correct, most clubs are trying to "force" kids to stay away from airsoft. The key word being "kids". They don't want them there for the hundreds of reasons listed in this thread.

Obiously, you havent been to many games yet. There is no guy behind the desk of the venue. Airsoft clubs are for the most part, played on private property. Most well-established fields are on someones back property. Most owners play. Its their land, plain and simple. They do care. And if you have a well-established players group who doesnt want minors, then typically its in the owners best intrest to keep his regulars happy.

But dude, you gotta check to see if things are rattling around properly in that melon of yours. Saying that its our fault that minors do stupid things because we dont let them on our fields....is simply retarded.
So if I shoot a real-steel handgun at a gun club here in Ottawa, and I end up screwing the owners wife, he kicks me outta his shooting club, does that encourage me to act in an uninformed and stupid manner?
We do everything we can to encourage proper behaviour. The rules are here. But if a minor doesnt like the rules and side-steps them, thats their fault. We didnt encouage that.

example:
If I tell nizfiz here not to play airsoft untill hes of-age, im not encouraging him "do it anyways" if he doesnt want to do what we recommend, and decides to go out and do it anyways, then thats his fault, not mine. Im not forcing him to act stupidly. saying its ok to act stupidly simple because he cant play at our field is retarded.

[Dracheous]

Originally Posted by nizfiz

I'm not here to start a fight again but just to say that you can join the Armed Forces at 16 with parental consent, the reserves anyway. You get to handle real firearms, grenades... the whole bit. Also, milsim is just that, a simulation, as in not the real thing, people won't die.

First off, wow, you're going to compare enlistment to a game/sport? And when you go onto these training fields, what happens when you fuck up? What happens if the muzzle of your rifle comes ANYWHERE near pointing at someone else on the firing range? I can tell you that this game and being a reservist has really not very much more than the gun incommon.

We're not babysitters, ((and this is where more wow's are going to come in because I agree 100% with Droc here)). Club owners are like anyone else in this country who should have the right to say yes or no to any club rules they like. Look it, until recently and a un-free vote in the house of commons, gay marriage was not legal because it was against the club house rules of the christian church ((NO I AM NOT GETTING INTO RELIGION THIS IS AN EXAMPLE)). So now you're telling us that WE have to change our rules to suit your niche of people? Nope, not gonna happen.

And someone was trying to say that insurance is moot ((I'm assuming moot means nada, zilch, nothing, which I think Lawdog confirmed for me saying that its not moot so...))... Insurance is a big thing in Canada, if you don't got it, you're in shit and lots of it too. And you really got to think about that when you're saying that someone else's home, car, and life is worthless. Because that's what any of you as a minor are risking these people if the cops show up in a bitchy mood because Timmy Hoe's didn't open up on time.



I agree with Droc on this 100% as I stated before and would like to see the sale of them to minors stop 100%. I also wonder if any of these said Feilds that let minors play actually rent out guns to them?


Oh, and to any of you minors that don't like it but have your own gun. Well when you show up to a local field here, you HAVE to let me use your gun or anyone else that asks. Yep, if you think that feild owners should have no choice in who should be allowed on their feild, you should have no choice in who touches, uses, wears and tears any belongings your bring to the feild. That sound fair? Cause if it don't I really hope you understand what I'm saying here.