Green Gas or Propane?

[PeteDaBum]

Now hold on, I know the specs on green gas vs propane for the most part, let's establish that.


What I want to know though, is should I be concerned for my handgun's durability if I'm using propane (not g.g.) on a semi-auto of full METAL construction?

Cheers

[Towe1ey]

You should be fine as long as you keep your gun lubed properly. I know lots of people that don't use any silicone oil in their mags or at least, very little. Make sure the lube your using isn't too light either or it will just fly off after repeated shots.

[Scrivah]

Man its more or less the same thing....(cue the skeptics!)

[Styrak]

Green gas is propane, minus some silicone oil for lubricant. Just add your own when using propane which is simple.

Much MUCH cheaper and its the same thing.

[m102404]

Look at an Airsoft Innovations Green Gas kit. There's an adaptor that fits onto propane cans and there's oil in it as well.

1-3 drops of oil in the adapator now and then will keep you gun lubed. If it looks too lubed...use the oil less frequently. Too dry...use a bit more.

Buy the green Coleman camping propane bottles from Canadian Tire, home depot, Lowes, etc...

It's as easy as that.

BUy green gas in imported cans if you want...not worth the expense to most people.

[Zeonprime]

Originally Posted by m102404

BUy green gas in imported cans if you want...not worth the expense to most people.

or the explosive nature of the cans themselves

[Ricochet]

Green gas is over priced propane with silicone oil in it. Use whatever your gun is rated for however, to get best results. Green gas is slightly more compressed and fires approximately twenty to thirty FPS higher than propane. Clean and lube your gun often, and buy higher quality propane. Torch is usually cleaner than cooking/lantern.

[Styrak]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Green gas is slightly more compressed and fires approximately twenty to thirty FPS higher than propane. .

What? No it doesn't, that doesn't even make sense. From a logical standpoint and also basic physics.

[Ricochet]

We've had consistent results with all our GBBs and GBBRs. There is two different kinds of green gas we've been using, and both have had the same results over the past couple of years. Our WE open bolt M14 had to be run on propane or it would shoot over. There was a discussion thread on here somewhere about it. Propane is compressed 200 - 248 times depending on how it's being used. Auto propane, or torch, cooking, etc is compressed an average of 207 - 208 times it's gas form, and then ethyl mercaptan (or similar) is added to give it it's rotten egg smell. I took a course on it years back. I read claims on forums of green gas companies over compressing their propane, and then not putting it in a suitable bottle for legal transportation. Perhaps not all green gas manufacturers do this, but the few I've used do shoot consistently hotter than our propane. We often use Coleman, Mastercraft, etc. We just recently acquired more green gas since buying some new pistols. The manufacturer and supplier are the same since three years ago, and the results were the same. The gas composition is the same, but you can compress gases to different levels. For instance as a firefighter we often work with supplied air. We have 2500 lb, 3600 lb, 4500 lb, etc bottles of compressed oxygen; and a compressor that will accommodate whatever. I'm not claiming I know exactly how much they compress their gas, but I can tell you the results we've had.

[Styrak]

Propane compresses into a liquid. Once it's there, you can't compress it further. That's physics. And once propane gets to a certain pressure (emptying some gas-phase propane from your tank) or temperature, some of the liquid propane turns into gas to maintain equilibrium

That's just how it works. It science, physics.

Oxygen does not compress into liquid, your argument falls apart there as well. Unless you work in lower than a -118C environment.

If the pressure/FPS is different when using a certain company's green gas cans, then there is a few additives that make it a little different, but mostly propane.

[Ricochet]

That doesn't even make sense. Something that compresses into a liquid/gas or whatever can be compressed further depending on its properties. If you compress LPG to the point it becomes a liquid, do you know what happens when you compress it a little further? It becomes a more dense liquid. The temperature drops slightly, the molecules come closer together, and if more is stored in a container; the pressure increases. Water is a great example, and shares many similar properties with LPG. Water can be a dense vapor, or a light vapor. It's not like it thaws into a liquid at 1*C, and then boils at 2*C. It's a liquid until it boils or freezes, and has a different temperature and density at each point between while maintaining its liquid state. Propane is no different, and maintains its liquid form throughout a range of temperature and density. It's physics.

[L473ncy]

Linds, water is essentially a non compressible fluid. Gasses can be compressed I'm not doubting that but it's physically impossible to compress water any further in liquid form. That's what the idea behind hydraulic equipment is (either using mineral oil or water).

There is some degree of compressibility to liquids such as water but it's not very much.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by L473ncy

Linds, water is essentially a non compressible fluid. Gasses can be compressed I'm not doubting that but it's physically impossible to compress water any further in liquid form. That's what the idea behind hydraulic equipment is (either using mineral oil or water).

There is some degree of compressibility to liquids such as water but it's not very much.

I realize that. I was using water as a comparison as it is commonly found in all three states, and like O2 it is often used as the measuring point, or zero to compare other elements.

[Rommen]

You are confusing several concepts, albeit in a fairly logical way. Let's see if we can sort this out.

Originally Posted by Ricochet

That doesn't even make sense. Something that compresses into a liquid/gas or whatever can be compressed further depending on its properties. If you compress LPG to the point it becomes a liquid, do you know what happens when you compress it a little further? It becomes a more dense liquid.

First, for most purposes in fluid dynamics, liquids are treated as incompressible. Yes, in reality they may compress slightly at high pressures, but so little that the effect is considered negligible. Therefore for the purposes of answering this question we will assume that once gas-phase propane has been compressed to a liquid it will compress no further.

Originally Posted by Ricochet

The temperature drops slightly, the molecules come closer together, and if more is stored in a container; the pressure increases.

Following from the first point comes the concept of vapor pressure. The vapor pressure is the pressure that, in this case, the gas-phase propane exerts on the container walls. The gas will exert the same pressure as long as: there is liquid in the container to maintain equilibrium, the volume of the container remains constant, and the temperature remains constant.

Also, when considering this question temperature must be held constant for both containers. When measuring pressure one must always make note of the temperature as well, as pressure varies directly according to the temperature. Lowering the temperature decreases the vapor pressure - meaning that if Green Gas and propane are the same, their respective vapor pressures will change by the same amount. The only time temperature may be considered a variable was if the container was filled right to the top. If the liquid was put in at a lower temperature, the container sealed and allowed to warm, the liquid would exert a higher pressure due to physical expansion, not a higher vapor pressure. But seeing as propane cans are always left with gas in them, this is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Water is a great example, and shares many similar properties with LPG. Water can be a dense vapor, or a light vapor. It's not like it thaws into a liquid at 1*C, and then boils at 2*C.

Actually, water isn't a very good example from a chemical standpoint. A 'dense' or 'light' vapor is actually just the amount of saturation present; ie a kettle inside a dry house will emit a 'light' vapor as the humidity in the house is low enough to accommodate more airborne water molecules. Conversely, fog is a result of having reached the airborne water saturation point and the excess water molecules float at low level. This is dissimilar from propane as it is not in a closed system and is already present in the atmosphere in significant amounts.

Another reason water isn't the best example is that it exhibits hydrogen bonding, giving it very strange properties in the behavior of its density at low temperatures (notably from 5C to -1C). Propane does not exhibit this and will behave much differently.

Originally Posted by Ricochet

It's a liquid until it boils or freezes, and has a different temperature and density at each point between while maintaining its liquid state. Propane is no different, and maintains its liquid form throughout a range of temperature and density.

This statement is technically correct but needs cause and effect to clarify. Propane can be found as a liquid through a variety of temperatures, yes. AT these temperatures, the liquid-phase propane will be in equilibrium with gas-phase propane, which will EXERT a certain pressure. However at certain temperatures or pressures it will stop being a liquid and turn entirely into either a gas or a solid. There is a finite combinations of pressure (changed through container size) and temperature that will result in liquid-phase propane. Going back to what was said earlier about temperature, we will find that the only way to change the pressure while holding everything else constant is to change the temperature, which will result in the same variance for both Green Gas and propane.

And the most important thing of all...

Originally Posted by Ricochet

It's physics.

No it's not, it's chemistry! : P

[XZIVR]

I play with propane in my GBBR but I use green gas when I'm messing with a gun indoors because it doesn't smell as bad. A while ago my butane torch ran out and I really needed to finish something with it, so I gave it a squirt of green gas and to my amazement, it worked better than with butane. Now it's all I use in that torch.