226 - Excessive gas usage

[m102404]

I picked up a package deal that had a bunch of TM 226 parts, a G&P slide, a Guarder frame/slide kit and a bunch of other little bits.

This was my first in-depth into a TM 226, whereas previous experience was limited to KJW Glocks and TM HiCapas.

After messing around with the setup as I received it (TM lower, G&P upper), I swapped everything into the Guarder kit.

The 226 is currently setup with:
- Guarder frame/slide
- Dytac night sights
- enhanced hammer spring
- enhanced recoil spring
- G&P metal outer barrel (threaded but thread adaptor/silencer not installed)
- 6.03mm tightbore
- stock piston head (nineball head removed...it was binding really tight on the piston)
- stock piston/nozzle
- Firefly power valve
- Firefly HiFlow valves (on 3 mags)
- Firefly ball bearing recoil guide

After a couple of hours of fiddling, the pistol shoots and cycles fine. However, the first few shots (1-3) vent a lot of gas from the blow back unit. After those shots, the pistol shoots "normally".

The internals are certainly used...but don't look too bad. Everything is lubed and moving smoothly.

I'm not sure if it's due to the extra venting from the first shots, or from the highflow valves, or from the enhanced hammer spring...or a combination of all three...but I only get 15 (shot 1 to 15) reliable shots before the pistol sounds "weak". Definitely by the 19-20 shot it's out of gas.

Q. Is that the typical number of shots for a 226 with the above upgrades? Perhaps I'm spoiled by the near-bottomless gas reserve and miserly gas usage of a HiCapa.

Q. Is there anything to do to alleviate the excessive venting on the first few shots? It doesn't really bother me...but it does sort of.

Not that I'm expecting this pistol to be a tack driver...but I'd like the shots to be consistent from first to last.

I've got a bunch of stock parts that I can swap in and out...but before I did that I wanted to get feedback from those with more 226 experience than I.

Thanks,

Tys

[Crunchmeister]

The first stock 226 I had last winter was awesome. It was powerful, accurate, and I could easily get 2+ mags on one gas fill. I hear this is typical of the 226. Sadly, it had an issue, which the seller remedied by sending me a whole new 226 upper.

Since then, I've upgraded it with a Creation metal slide and a tightbore barrel. My gun is not a horrid a gas hog, often getting me less than 1 mag of shots on a single gas fill. Each shot sees a stupid amound of propane being vented. And velocity has dropped to under 250 fps and shots are very inconsistent. I still haven't figured out this issue myself. I'm going to replace all the internals in the slide with some high end parts. Just haven't had the time or money to put into it yet.

PM Bloodsport. He has an all metal, fully upgraded P226 that shoots at high fps and has great gas useage. He game me a list of his internal parts a while back (which I lost the PM). It may be of help to you.

[DarkAngel]

check your mags, often if you get shite inside your valves or have weaker spring inside the valve etc, it will take longer (due to friction, lack of lubrication etc). This causes the valve to close slower, releasing more gas. The other issue is that your using high flow valves. So its expected to use more gas. Just perform standard maintainance, oiling etc and u should be good to go (Mags too).

[m102404]

Thanks for the replies.

All the hi-flow valves were assembled brand new from their packaging. o-rings lubed and thread teflon taped before installation into the mag bodies.

An addition drop or two of silicone oil was dropped on the main valve and into the mag for additional lube. The "buttons" seem to depress freely and rebound normally.

It's my first time using hi-flow valves. Is 15-20 shots from this type of setup typical?

Now that it's actually working for every shot, I'll start breaking it down piece by piece to see what the effects are.

After installing high flow valves, what was the fps increase?

[m102404]

I did things ass-backwards on this one and slapped in a lot of parts at once to see if it'd work and fix the cycling issues I was having with the G&P slide. One of the three mags had a very sticky/binding valve...so I swapped out all of them (so at least they'd be the same).

The second time through this one, I'll change out one thing at a time and take more careful note of the changes.

It's working now...not optimally, so now it's time to tweak it.

[ILLusion]

I recently had a similar problem and I swapped to a metal o-ring type setup which alleviated all issues.

I find that although the Nine Ball Dyna piston head does create a great seal, in certain setups, the o-ring rubber gets very tacky due to lack of lubrication (too much propane running through?) and causes a great deal of friction which expends a lot of gas to cycle the slide.
Switching it to a standard o-ring setup seems to alleviate the issue, as the cup type design that new Marui GBBs use (including the 226) will sometimes replicate the issue with the Dyna piston head (I notice it happening more with the Guarder nozzles than with stock nozzles. Shooters Design I've noticed no problems with - the material they use is great at self lubrication.)

I also found that some floating valves don't center properly in the BB end of the loading muzzle, and without a good seal, a lot of gas is wasted trying to push the slide back without a complete seal. Sometimes need to fiddle with that as well.

FWIW - all of the 226's I've upgraded, once you go metal with heavier springs, I was never able to get a full mag of BBs on one magazine fill.

It's generally the nature of any of these single stack pistols due to their tiny gas resevoir. Tys... we're too spoiled by Hi-Capas. No doubt.

[m102404]

Alright...sounds like I'll do the following.

1. Swap one mag valve back to a regular flow valve
2. Swap the hammer spring back to the regular mainspring
3. Take a good careful look at the blow back unit. I'll swap bits and pieces and test to see what effect it has (the house is going to stink after this one...)

This time around I'll:
- velocity test before/after
- focus on the first initial shots to reduce the amount of venting
- see if I can't get more shots/mag than now
- compare velocities between hi-flow/normal valves.

Priority will be on consistency and function.

I'll post up later with what turns up.

[Crunchmeister]

Good luck. Looking forward to your results, as they may help steer me in the right direction on my 226 problems as well.

[m102404]

BTW...if anyone needs replacement sights for their 226...the Dytac glow in the dark sights are very nice. Fit and finish is quite good. There was only a small amount of filing necessary to get the front sight to fit the Guarder slide (might have been due to the Guarder slide and not the sight...but I filed the sight anyways).

The rear sight fit perfectly...but the little screws that came with the sight were too short. I used longer screws (might be hard to find since they are tiny) and they work just fine. Seeing how that those screws are minuscule and that they're the only thing holding the blow back assembly onto the slide...I wouldn't be racking the slide one handed on your belt much...(obligatory test...but I won't do it again).

The dots do glow green in the dark (don't know how much this will help...I don't play in the dark too much, and I haven't used them in low light). They are off white in the daylight and easy to pickup.

I was missing the clip that holds the front sight to the slide...I took a small, rectangular piece of aluminum sheet, filed the sides to a wedge and tapered the front edge. I slipped it in to pin the front sight and used a small punch/mallet to tap it tight into place (sort of like wedging a door stop under a door...but in miniature). Seems to hold well. Only about 200 shots through it so far and the sight is still on there tight. I meant it as a temporary thing...but if it holds, it's on to stay.

[LouisZimmerman]

If you've been using propane exclusively, it might help to run a few fills of Green Gas through each mag (and thus through the gun). This should point out if it's a lubrication issue.

Louis

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by LouisZimmerman

If you've been using propane exclusively, it might help to run a few fills of Green Gas through each mag (and thus through the gun). This should point out if it's a lubrication issue.

Louis

It's general practice to be adding silicone oil to the propane adapter every 8-9 magazine fills anyways, so it makes your suggestion moot.

[LouisZimmerman]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

It's general practice to be adding silicone oil to the propane adapter every 8-9 magazine fills anyways, so it makes your suggestion moot.

Understood... but if one is like me, one would often forget to add the oil. :wink:

Which lead me to my segue: does anyone know what the ratio of oil to gas is in Green Gas, and if there is anything else besides the silicone oil added? I tried to work out the ratio from the instructions that came with my adapter. I can't find all the calculations right now, but after weighing mags empty and then full, using 4 mags to obtain an average weight of gas, applying the oiling instructions, and calculating for a larger volume, I ended up with a ratio of one approximately one ounce of silicone oil for eight pounds of propane.
I may be right out to lunch, but this does not seem like much oil to me...

Louis

[ILLusion]

Originally Posted by LouisZimmerman

Understood... but if one is like me, one would often forget to add the oil. :wink:

Which lead me to my segue: does anyone know what the ratio of oil to gas is in Green Gas, and if there is anything else besides the silicone oil added? I tried to work out the ratio from the instructions that came with my adapter. I can't find all the calculations right now, but after weighing mags empty and then full, using 4 mags to obtain an average weight of gas, applying the oiling instructions, and calculating for a larger volume, I ended up with a ratio of one approximately one ounce of silicone oil for eight pounds of propane.
I may be right out to lunch, but this does not seem like much oil to me...

Louis

You might want to discuss that with MadMax, the creator of the adapter.

[LouisZimmerman]

Originally Posted by ILLusion

You might want to discuss that with MadMax, the creator of the adapter.

Silly me... yes, of course, he's on the forum. Thanks!
(apologies for hijacking the thread)

Louis