BB Bastard Silica .28g bb's

[krap101]

I'm still curious of why them hitting you would hurt more.. (sorry, very passive sentence, but needed the effect). Since you're (skin) isn't that hard, the bb won't deform. If the bb doesn't deform, hardness won't make a difference, so a .28 will be a .28. On the other hand, if you hit something such as a car windshield, something hard against something hard, the plastic bb deforming will absorb some of the impact (think car bumper). The one thing I might think of, is I'm assuming the glass is smoother, so maybe slightly more aerodynamic, so maybe more energy upon striking?

[kullwarrior]

Originally Posted by VooDooPeteK

I have seen blood from normal .25's its part of playing the game...

if something is being shot at you you have to expect the worse.... NO?

The worse is a through and through

Originally Posted by krap101

I'm still curious of why them hitting you would hurt more.. (sorry, very passive sentence, but needed the effect). Since you're (skin) isn't that hard, the bb won't deform. If the bb doesn't deform, hardness won't make a difference, so a .28 will be a .28. On the other hand, if you hit something such as a car windshield, something hard against something hard, the plastic bb deforming will absorb some of the impact (think car bumper). The one thing I might think of, is I'm assuming the glass is smoother, so maybe slightly more aerodynamic, so maybe more energy upon striking?

It's the density strength thing. I'm physics retarded, but from what I know glass has a strong density which does not break when it hits daily hard surfaces. As a result the kinetic energy is directly transfer to the obstruction.

Polymer bbs or bio material aren't as strong, when they hit an hard surface they tend to deform, break. In a sense, not all the energy is transfer to the surface, some goes to destroying the bb itself.

[krap101]

I mean that's true for something like goggles and walls and such, but when getting hit, I don't understand how it could hurt more. something with the same weight size etc, will hurt the same imo, unless the bb deforms or shatters when it hits your skin, but right now I'm thinking that the bb is so much harder than your skin, that it will be basically the same.

In physics, (last semester) we learned about conservation of momentum, where an object bouncing off imparts the same force on the wall, but the net change in momentum in doubled. (totally elastic collision).

Density of the plastic bb and the glass bb will be the same, as density is mass over volume, and mass and volume are the same. You're thinking it will impart more energy upon impact because it doesn't deform (that is true), but I'm talking about getting hit (you as in person).

[Kid]

Originally Posted by kullwarrior

Goggles, they're but not skin. If every shot will draw blood Im sure some people won't like that...I personally don't want scars for life from a game.

There is no evidence so far that suggests silica BBs are significantly more likely to break the skin.

[Rugger_can]

Originally Posted by krap101

I mean that's true for something like goggles and walls and such, but when getting hit, I don't understand how it could hurt more. something with the same weight size etc, will hurt the same imo, unless the bb deforms or shatters when it hits your skin, but right now I'm thinking that the bb is so much harder than your skin, that it will be basically the same.

In physics, (last semester) we learned about conservation of momentum, where an object bouncing off imparts the same force on the wall, but the net change in momentum in doubled. (totally elastic collision).

Density of the plastic bb and the glass bb will be the same, as density is mass over volume, and mass and volume are the same. You're thinking it will impart more energy upon impact because it doesn't deform (that is true), but I'm talking about getting hit (you as in person).

Your missing the point. The damage to tissue is not the issue.. (fuck that rhymes). Its the striking damage potential to eye protection, try to remember that in real life ballistic eye protection is not meant to repel repeated assaults, the plastics and polymers will deform and eventually their ability to maintain their structural integrity will be compromised, and possible eye damage will occur. This is a serious health risk for players, as we can all recover from minor damage caused by occasional penetration to skin, but any ocular damage will most likely leave us irrevocably crippled, and that is what we wish to avoid. If these silica bb's accelerate this weakening process then we need to explore and determine by what order of magnitude and if the levels of danger are unacceptable (which many agree they are).

[krap101]

Well, I mean, goggles like flakjacks can survive buckshot from a shotgun. What we need is high speed footage of each bb hitting a hard object. I mean, I just returned a camera that could do 1000fps, (it was 115$) but lighting would be an issue. Also, 1000fps isn't enough imo. At 500 fps, you'll get like 2 seconds of footage if you're like a foot away. I don't think goggles are as big of an issue as glass, because instead of the bb deforming, the goggles would deform slightly to absorb more impact. (think kevlar vest). Another thing is that, unless you're shooting bb's at like a concrete block, I'm not totally convinced that the bb's (plastic) deform in any meaningful way. A sphere is the most compact shape (that's why "bubbles" on deep sea ships are spheres, because they can cope with the most pressure). In the same way, I don't think a bb would deform before it would shatter. Something like a tennis ball deforms because it's outer shell is elastic and it's filled with air. And for ballistic protection, they're also dealing with projectiles moving 2 or 3 times faster, and maybe 2-3 maybe up to 10 times heavier. From a quick search, the muzzle velocity of a shotgun is around 1600fps. So the kinetic energy that ballistic goggles have to cope with is around 30 times more, depending on how fast your bb's travel, how heavy they air, and what kind of buckshot you're using. (assuming the buckshot is 3x heavier and 3x faster)

Anyways, sorry for the long post...

[Azathoth]

As I have said repeatedly. Googles and lenses are rarely the issue. It's the frames that surround glasses/goggles that break.

[Kid]

There are a lot of concerns and a lot of assumptions, but not enough testing has been done to condemn these BBs yet.

The point was made that regular BBs don't deform much under normal shooting conditions and I'd have to agree with that point. I used to shoot a 400FPS gun with a 6.03 Prometheus tightbore at my basement targets (mainly cardboard) and reuse the BBs (KSC Perfect .20g). I would gather the BBs up after I was done, wash them off, pick out the shattered ones, then re-oil them and load them back up in the gun. Never had any jams.

[krap101]

I'm wondering, will these bb's be much cheaper than the bioval biomax bb's, because 32$ for 3700 bb's, (.27's) seems a bit much, but then again, these will be solely used in my bar-10, so they should last forever. When you think of it in per bb, I guess it comes out to like $.009 per bb, which is still half as much as a paintball.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by krap101

I'm wondering, will these bb's be much cheaper than the bioval biomax bb's, because 32$ for 3700 bb's, (.27's) seems a bit much, but then again, these will be solely used in my bar-10, so they should last forever. When you think of it in per bb, I guess it comes out to like $.009 per bb, which is still half as much as a paintball.

I think the pricing difference will matter only to a few people with this category of BB. Silicas are a premium, performance product. .28g is a weight level that most BB Bastard customers have standardized on as a preferred performance weight and is compatible with both our ECOBB and our Styrene BB at .28g. The main benefit is hop-up. If you're shooting a Bastard .28, it can be Styrene, Silica or Bio, but due to the weights being identical, you don't have to mess with your gun configuration once its set for this performance level.

With Bastards you buy by the 2000 count, not the weight. It comes out slightly cheaper per bag and per BB, but, most of my customers prefer 2000 count simply because of the form factor of a 2000 count bag and its lower cost per purchase event. Don't forget, 75% my product is sold at fields on game day. Being able to fill a couple mags and shove the bag in a cargo pocket or M16 mag is a convenience most people like. Sticking 1kg of BBs in a cargo pocket or M16 mag pouch isn't viable, its either too heavy or doesn't fit. Splitting a 1kg bag takes planning and people like being able to buy on game day and get on with the game, not distribute their BB loads.

[Lestat]

Given Kokanees initial test findings indicating optics, goggles (and potentially teeth) are at increased risk to clears - why is the onus solely on players to do further testing and confirm they aren't too damaging?

Shouldn't the supplier be confirming this first before release to the general public, as a responsible move to prevent them appearing in games without all players having informed consent they are in use? Ie Not all hosts appear to be adding 'no clears' to the usual 'no bios' rule - which implies game-on for clear use no?

Just seems like this may be a potential disaster waiting to happen via a 'let's see what happens' approach - or am I missing something?

[coach]

Originally Posted by Scarecrow

Don't forget, 75% my product is sold at fields on game day. Being able to fill a couple mags and shove the bag in a cargo pocket or M16 mag is a convenience most people like. Sticking 1kg of BBs in a cargo pocket or M16 mag pouch isn't viable, its either too heavy or doesn't fit. Splitting a 1kg bag takes planning and people like being able to buy on game day and get on with the game, not distribute their BB loads.

yeah, Renegade) was sold out and people were still asking for some. Mind you 40 odd bags did sell fast with 96 players on the field. But it was a shoot 'em up skirmish day so flying styrene was expected to fill the air all day, and it did!

Originally Posted by krap101

I'm wondering, will these bb's be much cheaper than the bioval biomax bb's, because 32$ for 3700 bb's, (.27's) seems a bit much, but then again, these will be solely used in my bar-10, so they should last forever. When you think of it in per bb, I guess it comes out to like $.009 per bb, which is still half as much as a paintball.

for the cost factor of a bag of .28's, it's really not all that much more as you noticed. I usually run .25's outdoors but switched up to .28's since there was going to be a terminator game. I was surprised that my M4 (new build) just loved .28's while .25's went about 40 feet. I used almost 2 bags of .28's and a wack load of .25's for grenades.

[Rugger_can]

Im really surprised by the level of machismo that has prevailed throughout this thread. Calling people pussies or using child like language to belittle (ect. Boo boo) is a little silly. If people have serious quantifiable results from using these then that's great. But perhaps we should just leave the name calling and insults at the door.

Try to avoid making a claim without any evidence to support it, lets pretend we are all actually serious about investigating the possible risks this product might have so that it can be either vetted for field use or relegated to target shooting.


Also, just for note about people claiming that lenses are not an issue here. How many of us actually replace our lenses after a strike?

[m102404]

Originally Posted by Lestat_d

Given Kokanees initial test findings indicating optics, goggles (and potentially teeth) are at increased risk to clears - why is the onus solely on players to do further testing and confirm they aren't too damaging?

Shouldn't the supplier be confirming this first before release to the general public, as a responsible move to prevent them appearing in games without all players having informed consent they are in use? Ie Not all hosts appear to be adding 'no clears' to the usual 'no bios' rule - which implies game-on for clear use no?

Just seems like this may be a potential disaster waiting to happen via a 'let's see what happens' approach - or am I missing something?

I have a lot of respect for Jay for standing firm on his stance of distancing himself from the testing (repeatedly, consistently, continually ) of any/all of his products.

His reasoning is valid as he's itterated in the past...[paraphrase] he does not want to be seen in any way shape or form to be an impartial influence in the construct, execution or analysis (rigorous or not) of any tests. His experience has demonstrated to him that the approach that works best (for him) is to have the player base try it, criticize/praise it, and provide feedback. (He'll soak up the criticisms pretty good and is actually quite modest re. praise)

He's willing to do what needs to be done based on that feedback, whether it requires him to develop and source a completely new product line and risking financial stability (i.e. the massive stocks of 0.28's that he almost had to feed his kids with a year or two back) or cancelling an existing product line because they're proven to be substandard/not-wanted.

So...is that fair. Yeah, it is. Might not suit everyone...but it works for the majority.

Re. cost....if the costs of BB's...be they $10/2000 or $30/4000+...is too expensive relative to all things involved in airsoft, guys need to reprioritize their budgets.

Personally...I hate the fucking bags that he sells them in. I'd rather buy by the pail full...and just put it into the collection of bags/bottles that I already have. The empty bags (while well made) are too big for storing RDS batteries/odds and ends....and too small for packing radios/headsets/etc...

Renegade) was stunned that he sold out so fast at the last FR game. If the sign up is looking the same for next one, he needs to bring 30-50% more than he did this time. Heavier weights 0.28's are clutch at FR...the open surroundings and shots from one hill to another need a heavier BB to carry predictably. Even then when the wind died down there's still enough breeze to hook long shots.

[Scarecrow]

Originally Posted by m102404

I have a lot of respect for Jay for standing firm on his stance of distancing himself from the testing (repeatedly, consistently, continually ) of any/all of his products.

Yes, I want to be impartial, and not seen to be manipulating testing or opinions. Airsofters are very critical of their gear and vendors who make gratuitous or unsubstantiated claims. Things like vendor employees posing as players posting glowing reviews with account signups of 2 weeks and zero post counts in other threads looks really impartial and professional and this board will find that out fast and pick your bones clean.

I do testing, but its not scientific and I don't post it because there is a lot of personal opinion I would put in that would create arguments. And at the end of the day I don't want to be labeled a shill.

As for the safety of the product - if I didn't think it was safe, I wouldn't sell it - I am past that. In my non-scientific opinion based on the collective testing and opinion of people here, including one of my competitors with a similar product, the results say time and time again, that yes, there are additional considerations due to the material, BUT, its no less safe than the risk you're already taking with non-silica. Therefore, its up to the individual player to form a judgement and for me to step back and let that debate occur without partisan influence. I don't know, but to me thats the most honest approach I can take, but I'm more than willing to hear anyone's opinion who thinks I wrong on that stance.

...risking financial stability (i.e. the massive stocks of 0.28's that he almost had to feed his kids with a year or two back) or cancelling an existing product line because they're proven to be substandard/not-wanted.

Heheheh, lol, someone knows my history. I'm getting better at it, and as of yesterday, BB Bastard went corporate, so its not longer a sole proprietorship, taking that financial burden off me. I've also got a very smart and experienced board of directors now who are forming the company up for me - I'm staying on the sales and product development side, but what it means is greater access to capital, facilities and shortly, less inventory issues and a wider product line (more about that soon) but remaining focused on ammunition and ammunition peripherals.

Personally...I hate the fucking bags that he sells them in. I'd rather buy by the pail full...and just put it into the collection of bags/bottles that I already have. The empty bags (while well made) are too big for storing RDS batteries/odds and ends....and too small for packing radios/headsets/etc...

WOW thats the first time I've gotten that type of feedback on the bags! What would be your alternative? do you want a higher quantity option or a different form factor? This is why I love this board - I am when it comes down to it I am a lazy fucker, so when tidbits like this come out, it justifies my approach I think.

Renegade) was stunned that he sold out so fast at the last FR game. If the sign up is looking the same for next one, he needs to bring 30-50% more than he did this time. Heavier weights 0.28's are clutch at FR...the open surroundings and shots from one hill to another need a heavier BB to carry predictably. Even then when the wind died down there's still enough breeze to hook long shots.

I was too - I've since resupplied him - he isn't far from me. If Z keeps these sort of games up, I'll have to allocate FR a lot more stock. I've already up the qty on my May/June shipment on that basis.