Border Wars?

[Crunchmeister]

It's a shame that it was canceled. The site itself is top notch. I had a blast playing there for Op Broadsword last fall. I would have loved to play there again and would have went despite the fact that I thought the price was rather steep.

However, due to the reasons Shelled brought up (mainly the "if we don't get X number of pre-payments before a date 2 months before the event, it's canceled" announcement), I think it started getting a lot of people nervous that they'd be losing their money should it be canceled or if they couldn't actually make it on the day of the event. It caused a lot of hesitation.

And seeing how a lot of the promises made for Op Broadsword to justify its steep cost came up WAY short on game day and that its organizer was also a key organizer in BWIII, I think that also got a few people concerned and worried about forking out that kind of money so far in advance. I know that was a factor for me and a lot of the Broadsword attendees I spoke to that had originally planned on attending BWIII as well. The lack of trust didn't help matters.

So yeah, it's a shame that it went down that way. I would hope that there could be another BW series in Canada, but unless something changes, I don't think that's going to happen.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by kalnaren

There were also some of us who'd been to previous border wars games and simply didn't think the cost was worth it.

Bollacks .. there were more than enough people "signed up" to float the game.. who knew the cost going in .. and said "i'm in" but when it came time to commit with coin more than half dissembled

The venue was beyond what is typical.. and the game was well planed to be an experience with little precedence here..

The issue is Airsofters in Ontario think that $25 is "too much to pay"

If they don't get Free BBs and a hot dog they feel "ripped off"

If you look as the costs for some of the top end games in the US $100 to $150 to get in is not uncommon for a weekend op.

But for the majority of Kraken toting mag ticklers $20 is a stretch.. it seriously cuts into their weed budget.

[Gato]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Bollacks .. there were more than enough people "signed up" to float the game.. who knew the cost going in .. and said "i'm in" but when it came time to commit with coin more than half dissembled

The venue was beyond what is typical.. and the game was well planed to be an experience with little precedence here..

The issue is Airsofters in Ontario think that $25 is "too much to pay"

If they don't get Free BBs and a hot dog they feel "ripped off"

If you look as the costs for some of the top end games in the US $100 to $150 to get in is not uncommon for a weekend op.

But for the majority of Kraken toting mag ticklers $20 is a stretch.. it seriously cuts into their weed budget.

Brian is correct, alot of people bitch and moan about anything over $25, for what was being offered in the field, I'd have gladly paid the cost to play.

I hope to see another Border Wars in the future

[Primus]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Bollacks .. there were more than enough people "signed up" to float the game.. who knew the cost going in .. and said "i'm in" but when it came time to commit with coin more than half dissembled

The venue was beyond what is typical.. and the game was well planed to be an experience with little precedence here..

The issue is Airsofters in Ontario think that $25 is "too much to pay"

If they don't get Free BBs and a hot dog they feel "ripped off"

If you look as the costs for some of the top end games in the US $100 to $150 to get in is not uncommon for a weekend op.

But for the majority of Kraken toting mag ticklers $20 is a stretch.. it seriously cuts into their weed budget.

True enough in regards to people balking at paying more than 20$ for a game but to call what was in the works well planned and a venue like no other is a bit of a stretch. IMHO it's was a mixture of cheapskates not wanting to cough up the cash and the vets seeing through the smoke and mirrors that killed the game.

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by Primus

True enough in regards to people balking at paying more than 20$ for a game but to call what was in the works well planned and a venue like no other is a bit of a stretch. IMHO it's was a mixture of cheapskates not wanting to cough up the cash and the vets seeing through the smoke and mirrors that killed the game.

As the creater of Border wars what smoke and mirrors would you be talking about? I worked my ass of and lost money on that event 8 months of planning. I could not control how Op Broadsword ran as I had nothing to do with planning or execution of the event. I so fucking sick and tired of people bitching about cost or "smoke and mirrors" as you put it. I don't see to many senior people running large ops and expect for few guys like Testtube, Brian M, Sha Do, Wolfpack nobody once offered to help just fucking keyboard commando. Yes there will be a Border War III but by invite only.

[kalnaren]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Bollacks .. there were more than enough people "signed up" to float the game.. who knew the cost going in .. and said "i'm in" but when it came time to commit with coin more than half dissembled

The venue was beyond what is typical.. and the game was well planed to be an experience with little precedence here..

The issue is Airsofters in Ontario think that $25 is "too much to pay"

If they don't get Free BBs and a hot dog they feel "ripped off"

If you look as the costs for some of the top end games in the US $100 to $150 to get in is not uncommon for a weekend op.

But for the majority of Kraken toting mag ticklers $20 is a stretch.. it seriously cuts into their weed budget.

While I don't doubt there's a good chunk of people in the group you describe, I also know several in the group I described. I have nothing against paying $100 for a game if I think the cost is worth it. I was at the first border wars game, and based on the experience I had there and what I heard from quite a few people at the second, I didn't think the asking price for the third was worth it.

I've also been to other milsim games that I payed $65+ for, and based on the experience I had there, if the hosts decided to bump the cost to $100 or $125, I'd go.

Just because some of us don't think a game is worth the cost doesn't make us cheap asses.

Now, having said that, I never committed to the game, never said "yay I'll come" and pulled out, I was no go from the beginning.

[ex]

The LZ will be holding a 24/36hr event this year but it will not be on the same scale as these large events that cater to 100+ bodies. We are capping the total number of attendees and requiring prepayment up front. IF you can't afford it you don't get to play.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

But for the majority of Kraken toting mag ticklers $20 is a stretch.. it seriously cuts into their weed budget.

The amount of playful but rancorous venom in that is....uurghhh it's delicious *chills*.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by Primus

True enough in regards to people balking at paying more than 20$ for a game but to call what was in the works well planned and a venue like no other is a bit of a stretch. IMHO it's was a mixture of cheapskates not wanting to cough up the cash and the vets seeing through the smoke and mirrors that killed the game.

I don't think there was any "smoke and Mirrors" Though I was not an organizer I was closely involved in many of the details.

The only miss-step was allowing people to sign up without $ down to start.

Also the Broadsword event ( which was at the same venue but not organized by the same group ) was lackluster due to bad planning and execution .. and people presumed (wrongly) that the same issues would be in play at BW.

BW suffered from under-capitalization.. and the players did the typical.. Ill wait and see if the game is confirmed before I pony up... Well if everyone waits .. then no one pays and the game goes south.

Most people don't have the first clue regarding the costs to get a large OP at a rented field off the ground... it is $thousands$ when you factor insurance and support fixed costs... They think that someone is earning large if the game fee breaches $20 .. and for some reason airsofters can't seem to tolerate someone making a little money to offset their risk... If I charge you $20 and put $2 in my pocket.. they feel I "ripped them off" for $2

I've been burned as well on games where 6 months out you have a full roster but on game day .. everyone has to wash their hair.

To my understanding ,, that is an issue at the LZ as well ...

[ex]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

To my understanding ,, that is an issue at the LZ as well ...

Yup...We've all been burned. I have lost money the last 2-3 years and I don't even own the field. We have bbq's hold $10 games and food drive games and still people bitch moan and complain about the cost. I just don't understand this mentality.

EDIT:
The Debacle that was broadsword left a lot of people scratching their heads and wondering what was what.

[H1TMAN]

Must games in the province of quebec range from 25$ to 35$. The more expensive games behind held on paintball fields and no one here bitches too much about the price. Its unfortunate to see large events comme to an end because people think that 25$ is too expensive for a game.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Originally Posted by ex

Yup...We've all been burned. I have lost money the last 2-3 years and I don't even own the field. We have bbq's hold $10 games and food drive games and still people bitch moan and complain about the cost. I just don't understand this mentality.

EDIT:
The Debacle that was broadsword left a lot of people scratching their heads and wondering what was what.

Indeed --- Frankly I think Broadsword left a bad taste in a lot of mouths.. and made people reluctant to commit to BW ..

Too bad as it was a different Host ... The same guy who Hosted Broadsword has had little traction getting any interest in his games...

Krusty .. and Force Recon got tainted by that person's Shenanigans and it contributed to BW failure

[T_A_N_K]

I'm not sure how it is in other provinces, but at least in Ontario, when hosts look at a CONFIRMED roster of attendees, they calculate at least 30% will flake just because. If the weather is less than perfect even more will flake.

With a significant increase cost to the BW3 game, is was what $100+? and the increased commute time to get to the venue, it isn't surprising why the game didn't take off. Yes the venue was unlike any other, and yes there was history and sound planning to the game, but I remember what Brian M said a while ago. The majority of airsofters in Ontario at best are young males with unstable incomes.

Heck look at the people who commit to game only back out because its not "worth" it to drive an hour and play in wet weather at a local FR game
(which is significantly cheaper/closer than BW3).

My only issue with the BW3 game was that there was very little information given out to non pre-paying players about the actual scenario, it was vague at best. This with the combination of how OP Broadsword turned out made my interest in BW3 fall dramatically. Yes I know OP Broadsword had nothing to do with BW3 but I can guarantee everyone who attended OP BS was thinking at the end of the day was "If BW3 if anything like today, no way am I attending"

Not to mention, if it was not for the 80% of the vets that attended that game, it would have been a lot worse than what is was.

EDIT:

With how flakers are and what Brian said, I think that best describes why BW3 didn't take off. Which is sad and unfortunate.

[pusangani]

The thing for me and people I know that went to Broadsword was that you paid $60 for an "ok" time

I must say I had alot of fun at that OP but others didn't, and to justify spending $100-$125 (I think that's what it was) for BW3 at the same venue was a stretch for some people.

I was one of those that signed up and flaked out when it came time to prepay, I was unemployed at the time (shitty excuse but it's the only one I have)

alot of people couldn't see why they should pay significantly more to play at a venue that they didn't have an awesome time to begin with.

Personally, I might be wrong but I thought the army tanks and apv's were a collossal waste of time and money and if that's what causes the high prices of large milsims like BW then perhaps organizers should get their priorities straight.

I know alot of people that think military stuff is kool, but when it comes down to it, I'm paying for airsoft, not to look at kool vehicles. Alot of people that I've talked to feel the same way too.

To Krusty, this isn't a personal attack on you, your a solid guy and it was a pleasure serving under you at the 24hr FTF game. I thank you for putting on all this awesome games in the past and I hope you continue to do so

[Ronald Chang]

If I am right, the first 2 Border War game fee was only $ 35 (with one drink and hamburger), which I think is well worth. Then the third one was increased to $ 100. If you take the transportation, bbs, equipment, battery, propane, and food/drink, into account, it could easily add up to a more susbtantial amount for many young people.

The increase was simply too much and the bad economy also made this whole game became unaffordable to many people.