Should CO2 SMG/handguns be allowed in games ?

[Ricochet]

I don't see the issue here. "Every" event should chrono "every" gun. "every" gun must meet the safety requirements of FPS/joule limits. If your indoor limit is 360 FPS then all pistols, SMGs, ARs, LMGs, etc must be below that standard. If your playing outdoors the same rules apply to the outdoor limit. Some people show great amounts of experience and maturity, but you don't reward them by allowing them to use a hotter gun. That sets a bad example.

As for guns that are easily adjustable in FPS, the owner is responsible for it. If anyone is caught changing springs, cylinders, propellant, or adjusting their MPAS after a chrono check; I'd throw them out of the game forthwith, ban them from future events. I'd also alert the local Airsoft community about them.

Basically your talking about safety and honor. Both of those things are paramount in Airsoft. Set the rules, and make sure everyone follows them; from newbs to vets.

FYI, FPS doesn't alone decide how far and accurate a gun shoots. If a pistol that is within the safety rules is outshooting your ARs and snipers, the issue is with your big guns, not the pistol.

[Gato]

Originally Posted by Swattiger

Most airsoft rifles are used from a longer distance, and pistols are mostly used in CQB and a much shorter distance.

So same power, but shorter distance=more damage=more dangerous. That's why most of the indoor games have limited the FPS to a much lower one.

Really? I'm not sure how you figure that one. If you come around a wall at 2-3 feet from me at a game with "no mercy", I'm going to engage you, whether I have a rifle firing 400 or a pistol firing 400. At that point, what's the difference.

If field rules state Max FPS to be 400, what difference is a pistol from an smg from a rifle, with the exception of more accuracy at range?

[Ricochet]

^ ^
This guy!

400 FPS isn't a whimsical number. We didn't go; "Let's figure out what'll injure us, and then back it off a little". You can be hurt from far less depending on a vast number of variables. We should all know the rules, and the risks.


-I've been shot at 15 feet away with 500 FPS and it barely left a mark.

-At 400 FPS getting hit in the knuckle, ear, nose, etc will hurt like bitch regardless.

-At 380 I've seen a BB break a weapon sight.

-At 360 I've seen one get stuck in someones face.

-At 300 I've seen in shatter someones tooth.

With a 0.20g BB, 400 is 400 is 400, regardless of platform. If using using a gas system chrono with the BB weight being used to ensure joule regs are met. And wear the safety gear. No mask, head, or throat guards = no right to complain.

[mikebarkski]

if you have limits on FPS you need limits on protective gear too....the face is fine, but how do you feel the hits through all the stupid tactical vests, some ppl need a layers limit...military gear is cool but i dont get the senarios...lol id rather be gang banging in my senario then fightin terrorists...i guess gangbangin is closer to home for me haha

[Ricochet]

For most people, the military gear and technology is the point. Most of us wear gear that makes what we are doing more efficient, but not all, some are there for the fashion show or to role-play. That being said, tactical gear makes a good *THWAP* when struck by a BB and most BBs are tracer-white and you can see the hit. Typically BBs are shot in small bursts as you don't know where the first one might fly off to, so sending 2-4 is average and you rarely get hit with just one, especially at a distance. As for feeling the hits, yes, tactical gear can protect you from actually feeling/noticing, but either you're not paying attention, or one fluffer shot got you on the run. Most will be aware that they are being shot at as well, so you're ready for the hit to happen. Tactical gear in this regard will never be regulated down, and when I say never, I mean never, because there isn't a stronger word than never to use. That being said, you can regulate it down on your own field, but progressive airsoft is going more tactical, not less. So when I need to carry eight mags, bags of ammo, liters of water, food, loading tools, basic med supplies, communications equipment, tape and tools, extra clothing, etc, or even a smaller kit for just a scrim, a plate carrier is the best possible choice for weight dispersion, effective/efficiency, and comfort.

As for FPS regulations, well they aren't going anywhere either and are very important. We do accept some risk by stepping into the field, but we have to have reasonable limitations for safety and sportsmanship. 1.5 joules, or similar, seems to be the magic number, but strictly indoor facilities run closer to 1.2 joules or less typically. It doesn't take much to injure someone with a BB. At under 1.5 joules I've seen someone get a BB lodged into their tongue and a variety of other injuries caused by BB strikes. I've played games with much higher FPS restrictions and lower. We've been doing this for a long time, and although we don't all agree on exactly where the best FPS limitations should be, most are fairly close, depending on field/game dynamics. 500 FPS is hard, too hard really to play generic airsoft without nearly being fully armored (mask, helmet, etc), so it has to be dumbed down from there based on engagement distances and safety. Also BB weight plays a large role as well. Most players don't run 0.20g BBs (the chrono weight), as it's just used as a measuring guideline in most cases, with the potential of your joules going up with extra weight, your velocity must come down to compensate. So no, FPS limits are intrinsic for intelligent, safe and reasonable airsoft to take place.

[ShelledPants]

I have played a lot of games, and FPS limits are totally dependent on the players on the field in terms of enjoyment. I've been to Brian's field a number of times with no FPS regulations, but the players were all top tier and it was amazing. I've also been to indoor public games with 350 fps limits and fucking hated it. 350fps with full auto at point blank is way more uncomfortable than 500fps at range.

The limits are in place for safety to the public. The host can't always be in control of their players and as such is a measure to balance safety with fun and keeping the crying to a minimum.

Personally, if they caliber of players were higher I'm sure we wouldn't see FPS regulations as often as we do, but it all boils down to experience, and that has taught us that for public games it is required.

As for gear. Its bullshit to say they couldn't feel it. I've worn armor of all types and have never had a problem feeling or hearing hits except at the longer ranges while in the forest. Often I will take a hit even if I am unsure of whether or not I was actually hit, to ensure fairness.

EDIT: As a side not, I'm a firm believer that RPS is more of an advantage than FPS. Being able to dump 40-50 rounds a second onto a target is far more of an force multiplier than power per shot. This also applies to CQB where trigger response adds a huge advantage, and having people rage quit because they got lit up by extremely fast semi fire is hilarious. At Nightfall 4 I got yelled at by enemies because they mistook my semi fire for auto indoors. This is where the decided factor of limited ammunition and no FPS limits is important, to prevent excessive shooting unless it is absolutely required, and prevents the game turning into who can put more ammo down range than the other team.

[Ricochet]

Yeah. People who don't call their are hits are just not calling them. The odd ones not felt are a non issue, in fact it's a non issue regardless. I've played those higher FPS games as well and would so again with higher caliber players, but I've also learned that the best of us make mistakes, so close range face shots and whatever, will happen, so just know what you're getting into. My guns reformable at sub 1.5 joules with 0.30g BBs is outstanding though, I don't really see the need to bump up FPS. You'd get a bit more range with heavier BBs, assuming of course your setup is done right, but most DMR guns on the field with more FPS than mine (50+), I'm still out shooting. So if you're gonna do high FPS you gotta do it right. Plus over 400 FPS there's a much, much, much higher chance of bleeders, embedded rounds and hurt feelings. Also, I don't like a game where there's a feeling that an MED is necessary. Leave that crap for snipers so they can have some BA advantage.

[Grudge]

I bought a desert eagle pistol that came with 2 C02 mags. The gun shot amazing, long range and accurate, but it was shooting 435FPS. So, nope couldn't field it. Everywhere was 400 - 420. Had to buy some green gas mags. Now it shoots 385, still long range and accurate, but it's gameable. I never thought, "Oh its a pistol so it shouldn't count for FPS rules. Its a weapon system, just like rifles, shotguns and SMG's.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by Grudge

I bought a desert eagle pistol that came with 2 C02 mags. The gun shot amazing, long range and accurate, but it was shooting 435FPS. So, nope couldn't field it. Everywhere was 400 - 420. Had to buy some green gas mags. Now it shoots 385, still long range and accurate, but it's gameable. I never thought, "Oh its a pistol so it shouldn't count for FPS rules. Its a weapon system, just like rifles, shotguns and SMG's.

Ya know, the longer I play this game the more I'm a fan of mandatory secondary's with low FPS, at least for more serious players, fields, games, etc. having a reliable pistol that shoots sub 350 is an effective and safe way to deal with CQB situations and is also a benefit to the player. Many fields started doing this for snipers (plus FPS BA units) years ago because of MEDs, but honestly, why not make it a benchmark for everyone? It completely makes sense to me. As for CO2 pistols in general, their general FPS seems to be coming down, but there should be a way to make the FPS come down safely nowadays. Either way, whatever type of gun you're running its your responsibility to make sure it's within field limits and stays that way post chrono.

[lurkingknight]

The gun must shoot under 400 fps on the first shots of the canister. This way there's no question whether or not someone bled x number of shots out of it to get under 400 fps.

If I'm running chrono, I have the person insert a new canister AT the chrono, and if it's under 400, then it's good. If it's over, it's a no go. You can't prove once it's on the field the guy isn't putting a new canister in at whatever time, and proving he's doing a sufficient number of bleed shots to get it under 400.

[Danke]

Originally Posted by mikebarkski

if you have limits on FPS you need limits on protective gear too....the face is fine, but how do you feel the hits through all the stupid tactical vests, some ppl need a layers limit...military gear is cool but i dont get the senarios...lol id rather be gang banging in my senario then fightin terrorists...i guess gangbangin is closer to home for me haha

All users get special "feelings" training on how to detect hits. In fact some of the gear amplifies the sound of the hit vs. a soft jacket that soaks up a BB with nary a hint.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by mikebarkski

the face is fine

Hard disagree. Although I don't typically wear a mask (my choice), I've had two teeth shot out and plenty of bleeders, fat lips, etc. realistically you want more protection not less. Anyways, no one wants to get hit in the face so they can feel their hits.

[Danke]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Hard disagree. Although I don't typically wear a mask (my choice), I've had two teeth shot out and plenty of bleeders, fat lips, etc. realistically you want more protection not less. Anyways, no one wants to get hit in the face so they can feel their hits.

No he's saying protecting your face is OK but the rest of your gear should be a crop top and nut huggers.

[lurkingknight]

shirts 'n skins gameplay, it's how all the cool kids play now.

[Gato]

Originally Posted by Huron

FPS/joule limits are FPS/joule limits... If the field/game has them then why on earth should these handguns or SMGs be exempt? Sounds like a case of stupid to me. If the power of the gun can't be lowered below the accepted limit then the gun shouldn't be allowed into play. Seems pretty simple...

If there are high limits because of longer ranges, usually players are expected to carry a secondary weapon or sidearm that doesn't shoot as hot for close quarters. I personally wouldn't run a 360fps rifle and tune my pistol to 450. Just doesn't make any sense, and is rather irresponsible. Unless they plan to use their sidearm as a DMR and their rifle as a pistol, which sounds like another problem unto itself lol.

Unless your hosts are idiots, this is pretty much it. Any FPS/Joule limit for guns, other than sniper if that applies at the fiedl, apply to all guns, pistols/smg included. Would you chrony a GBBR at your field?