Age Verified....Why?

[DustMagnet]

Originally Posted by fretwire

I'd go so far as to say the "Age Verification" system is careless!!!!

Selling Airsoft guns to someone under 18 is ILLEGAL in Canada. If you sell a gun you should be verifying age at time of sale, not relying on an internet (internet!) forum with a little "Age Verified" tag under someone's name.

Need citation for federal statute. My understanding is that Ontario has a provincial law on the books for this, but that does not apply to the rest of the country.

You don't seem to be aware of what that little tag under a person's name means. It means the account holder has been verified to be of age in person and had their government ID checked. If the account is being used by someone other than the holder, that is a different problem (and a violation that is taken seriously).

Originally Posted by fretwire

Seeing the "Age Verified" tag might make you less likely to verify age at the time of sale. In that case if the person you're selling to is under 18 you've broken our laws.

The tag means the verification has been done. It does seem likely that if some has been verified you might not need to verify them again. You don't have to re-enter your password every time you click a link on the site either.

Originally Posted by fretwire

The age verification system probably started with good intentions (or possibly this was started by a retailer who wanted to make the classifieds more difficult to access ;>) but it's most certainly misguided.

Conspiracy theory plus sour grapes.

Originally Posted by fretwire

Plus it's annoying - I want to see some Airsoft porn in the classifieds but I can't because some random kid hasn't checked my id

Ah, now we get to the meat of the dissatisfaction.

Originally Posted by fretwire

The funniest part for me is when I decided to buy a used Airsoft gun in Canada the kid I bought it from turned out to be 14 years old. I was expecting at least a 20-something but nope, I went to meet up and see this 14 year old kid. Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the seller (he was a really good kid), but it kinda caught me off guard!

CSB. Relevance to ASC Age Verification: 0%

[beta678]

Well, I see the guys from Facebook finally made it over to the forums...

All the guys complaining about the AV system just sound like annoying, lazy, self entitled kids.

Don't like the system? Don't use the forums, pages, services, etc. Its fairly simple.

[daishi]

This whole thread



You don't like the rules, you can leave. Just because you are a butt hurt 12 year old that wants toy guns to go play with your friends in the local playground on the swing set, doesn't mean shit here.

Being age verified (and btw the VERIFIERS are shop/field/respected members for the most part) allows everyone to know you are old enough to legally sell to.

Again

[localfreerider]

I found this pic in the trash disposal and was waiting for the right opportunity to post it!



BTW what ever happened to Epic Fail Guy? I did some browsing though the trash disposal/Le Stinke de la Crope and man those were some funny ass threads!

Its too bad you have to be AV'd to see the best parts of ASC

You guys who are bitching don't know all the fun your missing out on!

[burner63]

Yes...Thank you for your constructive criticism daishi...

Form reading up on the laws governed throughout Canada by the RCMP, an airsoft gun firing ABOVE 366 fps and BELOW 500 fps are not firearms according to the firearms act. Therefore you DO NOT need to be 18+ to own one. Nor do you need any sort of license or 'verification'

As a previous user stated, many of the individuals selling these "guns" are in fact, under 18+, as well as many of the players in the community. Most anyone selling their gun on a forum will sell to someone under 18 years of age, I've seen it happen multiple times before. I've seen Airsoft retailers sell guns to "under 18's", not to mention parts and a plethora of accessories.

It seems foolish to have all this extra hassle simply to buy and sell toy guns. Really, that's what they are. I'm a player, you're a player, we both get offended when they're called that but it's the truth nonetheless.

This is not a troll account, nor am I trying to make anyone mad (which apparently I have). I enjoy using this forum, however, when major parts of it are locked to me, I must say I am quite disheartened.

If I must be honest yet again, many of the reactions my post has gained seem very childish for such people who are "age verified"

[ThunderCactus]

1) in order to cheat the system, you'd need to have a fake government ID
2) it records actual PEOPLE as scammers, not just IP addresses or names which can very easily be faked by anyone
3) when you turn 18, all your actions and illegal dealings stay with you FOR LIFE. You scam a few people out of hundreds of dollars when you're 16, it sticks till you're 18, and they wipe the slate clean.
4) I want a basis of character for anyone I deal with. For someone who has no trader rating, the basis of character is the fact you took it upon yourself to go out of your way to meet an age verifier and that someone has met you IN PERSON to verify that you are, in fact, a real person. And having dealt with the BS of getting AV'd makes that person much less willing to do anything to lose AV status.

Us 18+ members wanted a place where we'd ONLY be dealing with other people who are 18+
If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to stay, so just go buy and sell your stuff on one of the MANY other sites available to you.
We like our system, it's staying.

[fretwire]

From the RCMP wrt air guns 5.7 joules or under:

----
The simple possession, acquisition and use of these air guns for lawful purposes are regulated more by provincial and municipal laws and by-laws than by federal law. For example, some provinces may have set a minimum age for acquiring such an air gun. For more information, please contact your local or provincial authorities.
----

So you are quite correct and I was mistaken in making the blanket statement that airsoft guns can only be sold to persons over 18 in Canada. The over-18 law may apply in Ontario but other provinces/territories/municipalities are free to make their own rules.

I still agree that the Age Verification system is terribly misguided (for all sorts of reasons) but as someone pointed out this is the ASC sandbox and they're free to make whatever rules they want for whatever reasons they want.

If I do get age verified at some point, I'll still think it's a silly and misguided approach. Because it is.

Originally Posted by DustMagnet

Need citation for federal statute. My understanding is that Ontario has a provincial law on the books for this, but that does not apply to the rest of the country.

[Red Dot]

These toy guns can seriously hurt people and when used inappropriately can land you in serious trouble with local law enforcement agencies. I appreciate what ASC does as it tends to collect like-minded adults who play airsoft together so we can grow as a community. Airsoft still very much is a fringe hobby, always on a fine line based on our actions. I want to deal with adults and participate with adults because of the nature of the hobby. There will always be exceptions, kids that are mature and adults who are not but again it's targeted towards what the majority of the community wants and needs.

A gentleman who ran a very long milsim series in the US commented that even though it's very strict in Canada about importing airsoft rifles and age requirements, he felt the hobby was better here then in the US because of those reasons. More mature players, more commitment because of the time and effort required, etc.

I personally don't like playing with young children because I don't like shooting kids. My experience is they are effected way more psychologically then adults when being shot, crying out of fear or discomfort. Again not everyone but most I've encountered in airsoft and even paintball.

Nothing is perfect but if you have a good attitude, educate yourself and play safe and honourably then you'd have little issues with the majority of the community.

[RainyEyes]

Originally Posted by burner63

Form reading up on the laws governed throughout Canada by the RCMP, an airsoft gun firing ABOVE 366 fps and BELOW 500 fps are not firearms according to the firearms act. Therefore you DO NOT need to be 18+ to own one. Nor do you need any sort of license or 'verification'

Here's a little tip about common sense. Get some.

Airsoft guns are also referred to replica firearms because they resemble with near precision a real firearm. Schools HAVE shut down because people bring these things to school. You can argue about its danger all you want but when you take these things outside in public view there WILL be panic.

And what's that? Police are the public you say? And police shoot people who have guns?

Oh wait, that's right, children HAVE DIED because they got a hold of an airsoft gun and did stupid shit with it.

We AV for public safety, respect with the law, and respect to the community. The RCMP has its own method of curtailing unauthorized real firearms, but airsoft guns not as much.

Condescension aside, since many of the sales and classified ads in these forums are legally made with adults (since it is prohibited with children), and it is a national forum, the most secure and safest way to verify someone's age is the current system.

Considering that ASC does not sell airsoft guns, but solely advertises, you can consider ASC to be its own kind of Torrent site like The Pirate Bay. TBP links you to said downloadable content, just like ASC links you to said classifieds, but they do not upload nor host the content, just as ASC does not own and distribute the guns; its users do, and ASC is merely a proxy to do it safely.

The point is that ASC is a proxy which requires CERTAIN authentication to abide by the law. If we were selling to minors, the proxy would be removed, just as many torrent sites have been shut down in the past. This is why age verification is necessary.

And why is the "current" method necessary? e.g. meeting someone in person?

We need to meet you in person to verify that the ID you provide belongs to you. Merely sending a drivers license or meeting on skype does not help this case because scanning a license and sending it online is insecure. Secondly, skyping provides horrible camera quality, followed by the possibility of imposters because there's no way to compare the photo ID on the person with the person accurately because of said quality.

Lastly, this is a private website. There will be bureaucratic, bullshit, but very real bullshit, like a lack of funding, which is somewhat related to a lack of volunteers. Not everyone has time to be 24/7 on standby to meet the 17 year old, reject them, and go back to bed waiting for the next underaged bloke to waste more time. I'm not an age verifier, but I'd like to hear some stats on how many people have failed to be age verified because they were not 18. Having to meet in person is a good deterrent for that because people don't want to waste time NOT being verified.

Oh, and one more thing. IF you get scammed on craigslist, kijiji, etc. there's no way to find that person again. At least here, there WILL be a paper trail that WILL lead to legal repercussion.

[Ricochet]

You are the one-billionth (slight exaggeration) person to post a thread like this, hence the, what-seems-like-immature-responses. We know where this goes, it's hilarious and ends with you permanently banned because you can't see the big picture, so we may as well have some fun with it, etc.

Second point; this is someone's house, if you don't like the rules, then leave, it's as simple as that. Ask serious and informed questions, don't point and accuse, it only cements your uneducated and ignorant attitude. No one gives a shit about what YOU think or how YOU feel. Remember, you are only entitled to have an opinion, it doesn't mean that it's valid or that others have to take it seriously. You are not special, knowledgeable or well versed in what you speak of. It's never too late to admit it and get yourself out of this hole you're digging though. Just sayin'.

Thirdly; well, we are very aware of the laws, federal and otherwise, as we have been here since the beginning. Some of our members have even helped to shape airsoft's legality in Canada. We've seen every bill, court case, ruling and legislation alteration since anyone cared. We know how the Supreme Court views it, how the RCMP views it, how the CBSA views it and how people like you interpret it and then open your mouth about it. The RCMP guideline page that you are quoting is just that, guidelines. The Canadian Firearms Program is responsible for the current state of airsoft and anything firearms related in Canada, and have very clearly worked out the current, and really only important classification and legislation that you need to worry about. So, spoon feedings aside, you need to do considerably more research before arguing with those who live and breathe the details of this.

Now I'll explain the AV system in a way that you can understand it. Let's take all the laws for a moment and throw them out the window. Instead we'll pretend that ASC is its own private entity and will do whatever the fuck it wants, as such. Oh wait! It is that, and those laws are not actually important here. Okay, now that that's settled, let's move on.

Canadian airsoft laws are what they are, importation laws are different, firearms laws are somewhat different and any other set of laws are different again. Although they'll play a small part, they are hardly the big picture. Now, despite what you think, airsoft guns are considered firearms for parts of the criminal code, ownership, purchasing and importation depending on many factors, and therefore fall under the jurisdiction of the CFP. Because of this, you don't necessarily need to be eighteen and up to own one in all specific circumstances, but in most, yes you do. But that doesn't matter. Anyone under the age of majority, which is eighteen in Canada, has legal guardians. These are people whom are responsible for their charge's/children's actions, until they, their charges/children, come of age. If they say, give their child or charge an airsoft gun and something happens, they, as the legal guardian(s), can be charged or held accountable. It's as simple as that.

Now let's talk the business side of it all. ASC is not your legal guardian, and lord knows, they really don't want to be. They don't want to be responsible for what you may or may not do with an airsoft gun, so they have decided in their very obvious wisdom to have NO part of giving or providing access to firearms or dangerous weapons, airsoft or otherwise to minors. How do they do this? Well, through the AV system. By picking trusted and longstanding members of the community to physically check that each member is age of majority or older, they have done everything reasonable to take accountability for their site and community. There are however no walls that can't be climbed, no locks that can't be picked and therefore the system isn't perfect. Even the CIA could be hacked, but is it their fault? Nope, at least as long as they've done what they can. So, if a "verified adult" gives account access to a youth, it's now on them and not ASC. We've covered our legal side, insurance, responsibility, etc, all of it. So, the age side of it is strictly ASC taking accountability, at least as much as they can and protecting themselves at the same time.

So now that I've made that shit simple for you, let's talk about the other half. The second part of it is strictly verification of your person. This part is much easier to explain. ASC is kind of like Facebook and eBay, for airsoft in Canada, all rolled into one. On eBay, anonymous people committing fraud happens, and on Facebook, creepy fifty year old pedophiles can try to pick up young boys by pretending to be a hot teenage girl, but on ASC they can't? Why is that you ask? Well, it's simple. The AV process isn't just an age verification process, it's a YOU verification process. By meeting and collecting your info in person we can now, as a community, hold you accountable for anything you do, say, buy and sell here. On the flip side it also protects you from others to an extent. See? It's a fairly elegant way of protecting the community and everyone taking personal responsibility.

In closing i'd like to say that the age verification process has been a cornerstone of the Canadian airsoft communitie's success, and that's why it's emulated by almost all of the serious regional sites such as JOC, LMAG, EAR, etc. but seeing as how it is a private site, at the end of the day it's their business and not yours. You don't have to like it and can come up with as many bullshit reasons as you want, but they all don't matter and neither do you in the big picture. Be a part of it or don't, but don't stand there bitching like some self entitled, impatient, uneducated punk. Get it now? Good! Because if you still can't understand it, your life issues are just beginning.

But before I go, can I ask you a serious question? How much sand can you fit in your vagina?

[Adamlxlx]

Av process isnt going anywhere. Its easy, your lazy. Simple enough.

[ThunderCactus]

You can always count on lindz to write way more than you're willing to read on a monday morning lol

[BloodSport]

Originally Posted by burner63

This is not a troll account, nor am I trying to make anyone mad (which apparently I have). I enjoy using this forum, however, when major parts of it are locked to me, I must say I am quite disheartened.

Then why do you have 3 accounts?
bryanman 99.247.51.5 (funny thing is this user names matches the email addy you used for burner 63)
burner63 99.247.51.5
burner 99.247.51.5 (same email used for bryanman with an extra #)

Sorry but you have been found in violation of one of the primary rules on this forum and are no longer trust worthy or allowed here. Liars will never get age verified as we can not trust you to be trustworthy in sales transactions.

[BioRage]

[Foxer2373]

Originally Posted by BloodSport

Then why do you have 3 accounts?
bryanman 99.247.51.5 (funny thing is this user names matches the email addy you used for burner 63)
burner63 99.247.51.5
burner 99.247.51.5 (same email used for bryanman with an extra #)

Sorry but you have been found in violation of one of the primary rules on this forum and are no longer trust worthy or allowed here. Liars will never get age verified as we can not trust you to be trustworthy in sales transactions.

The system works.....