Airsoft in Tactical Gear Magazine

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by FOX_111

But I must add that we don't live in the far west. Or should I say, in the US.

Or Toronto................... I trust you've been keeping up with that one......... blacks are safer in Detriot than in Toronto........... Toronto is the prime example of how the "Soft On Crime" mentality does NOT work!

In the end, every single one of our law enforcement officers needs annual training with force-on-force. For starters, it makes them understand shoot or get shot mentality, but also makes them feel comfortable simply pointing their guns at criminals when arresting. Not that every criminal needs a gun shoved in his face, but for cops, they won't stand there thinking "Whoa, this is different!" and have them position themselves ina way that if the arrest goes bad, they had it go bad with airsoft and got shot in the ass, therefore they know enough to put their body in behind some type of cover when making their arrest. That is a prime example of where force on force training is usefull, even if not single shot if fired. Let's you knwo what parts of your body are exposed to bullets.

[Quaff]

Cost is a small price to pay for almost exact realism.

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by Quaff

Cost is a small price to pay for almost exact realism.

Yes, BUT, if the department is already strapped for cash (many ARE), then alternatives have to be looked at. Also, if you read above, what if the guns your department uses daily isn't available in Simunition form? Go with a totally different type for the sake of realism, then make your officers learn a new weapon system for training, and a different one that will actually save your life?

I fully understand your point, but understand the other details present. Ideally the best is to train with as close to the issued guns as possible. If the carry gun is a Glock, why train with a Simunition Beretta 92 when you can train with a Glock GBB? Both operate differently, Glock has the trigger safety, Beretta has a switch that sits high on the slide. Many officers aren't very gun savvy and will get screwed up.

Then back on the cost thing, if half a dozen GBBs and plenty of ammo can be had for the price of one Simunition conversion kit or actually Simunition gun......... Not sure about other cities, but the Ottawa Police Force is extremely strapped for cash, constantly hear about it in the news, their trying to get more cash out of City Hall, and are under staffed as well. I think we have like one officer for every 700 people here. Not sure the standard across the country, but there are more pressing things than just spending $20-30k for a couple Simunition guns. Be nice if departments can rent a set for a few weeks though. Anyone want to start a business? ;-)

[PTE. Pyle]

Be nice if departments can rent a set for a few weeks though. Anyone want to start a business?
lol i was just thinking that

[Shugart]

Originally Posted by CDN_Stalker

Or Toronto................... I trust you've been keeping up with that one......... blacks are safer in Detriot than in Toronto........... Toronto is the prime example of how the "Soft On Crime" mentality does NOT work!

I don't know what stats you've been reading, but over a ten year trend, violent crimes in Toronto have been falling. There's only been a slight increase in the use of firearms. Toronto is the safest big City in Canada. For a city our size, and to still remain quite safe, that says something of the way the or social programs are working.

About the use of Airsoft as a training aid. Though cheaper than simunitions or blanks, it doesn't ad enough to the realism. Yes, you get the feel for moving through a room with a weapon, and popping off a few shots, but there's no bang or hard recoil. Those are two of the biggest factors to get over when actually using a weapon, and thats something Airsoft can not train you for.

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by Shugart

I don't know what stats you've been reading, but over a ten year trend, violent crimes in Toronto have been falling. There's only been a slight increase in the use of firearms. Toronto is the safest big City in Canada. For a city our size, and to still remain quite safe, that says something of the way the or social programs are working.

That's twice in as many weeks that you've said this. Must really be that either the media is making up stuff with all the reports of shootings (just yesterday I came across a shooting at a funeral in Toronto) or you are a member of Toronto city council and in typical denial. I don't go by stats, I go by what I hear on the news or see in the National Post or Globe & Mail (who says I don't read liberal biased stuff?). I'd STILL lean towards what the media reports on than by what Shugart on ASC says. No offence, but weigh the sides to see. Have heard a few times in the past couple months that out of all the cities in North America, Toronto is the most dangerous for blacks to live in.......... assume I guess that if you are talking guns and blacks, the media has it down pat, but if we take your issues of overall crime, then it might be much more reduced. I talk about occasions where firearms are drawn and the criminals actually use them in all that I've said, and officers have to actually USE their sidearms, not occasions where police officers are to call out the SWAT team to deal with errant jaywalkers. Hell, from what the reports could actually be, a per capita basis, just like Winnepeg is "murder capital of North America" or whatever has been reported, is 'per capita'. I think this is where you and I will have to agree to clarity.

Back on the thread, airsoft is more realistic than paintball due to the weapons used, and at close ranges airsoft hurts. That is force on force, espeically when used indoors, such as room clearing. Cops learn recoil and boom at the range, as well as the ballistics of their sidearms. Indoor training with GBBs is very effective because you learn from your welts, you learn to grab and hold the gun under stress, deal with any safety that might be on the gun (Glocks are popular, have no safety lever as we know). We aren't talking about training police officers on the range with airsoft, never having them shoot the actual gun they will carry with them and will save their life when/if it comes up, then issuing them the sidearm and hoping they do ok with it based upon training with paintmarkers or airsoft. Simunitions doesn't have the same recoil or noise that real guns do either.

Overall, what you say is the same thing as training pilots in simulators for a year or so, then giving them the licence to fly for major airlines without their ever having seen the cockpit of an actual airplane before. That is the impression I get from your words.

[FOX_111]

I don't go by stats, I go by what I hear on the news or see in the National Post or Globe & Mail (who says I don't read liberal biased stuff?)

Better switch back to stats. The news will always show that stuff. You end up with the impression that there are many violent crimes, but in reality, you just see what they covered.

The Stats recold ALL known violents crimes. Then, you look at the crime prorata (crime per 1000 citizen) Than you can see if there is an increase or decrease.

You will probably find that it's pretty stable since 1990.
All the stats can be fount on Statistic canada website.

[Quaff]

Ask the OPP what they use for training. They use Simunition. Airsoft is nowhere near close enough to the real thing, they are toys. Sorry to say it.
Simunition uses the officers own gun, how much more would you want? I doubt there is a single Police Service in Canada that would use airsoft, but if you want to suggest one, I'm sure I can find out.

[|2enegade]

Originally Posted by CDN_Stalker

That's twice in as many weeks that you've said this. Must really be that either the media is making up stuff with all the reports of shootings (just yesterday I came across a shooting at a funeral in Toronto) or you are a member of Toronto city council and in typical denial. I don't go by stats, I go by what I hear on the news or see in the National Post or Globe & Mail (who says I don't read liberal biased stuff?). I'd STILL lean towards what the media reports on than by what Shugart on ASC says. No offence, but weigh the sides to see. Have heard a few times in the past couple months that out of all the cities in North America, Toronto is the most dangerous for blacks to live in.......... assume I guess that if you are talking guns and blacks, the media has it down pat, but if we take your issues of overall crime, then it might be much more reduced. I talk about occasions where firearms are drawn and the criminals actually use them in all that I've said, and officers have to actually USE their sidearms, not occasions where police officers are to call out the SWAT team to deal with errant jaywalkers. Hell, from what the reports could actually be, a per capita basis, just like Winnepeg is "murder capital of North America" or whatever has been reported, is 'per capita'. I think this is where you and I will have to agree to clarity.

The news, by nature of profession, loves to sensationalize everything. Sure Toronto has seen a recent rash of gun crimes, but it is not nearly enough to make it worse than, let's say, Detroit.
p.s. I'm black and live in Toronto and find it to be a very safe city in comparison with Detriot.

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by Quaff

Ask the OPP what they use for training. They use Simunition. Airsoft is nowhere near close enough to the real thing, they are toys. Sorry to say it.
Simunition uses the officers own gun, how much more would you want? I doubt there is a single Police Service in Canada that would use airsoft, but if you want to suggest one, I'm sure I can find out.

They can afford it. Good. Never said that airsoft was BETTER than the alternatives, just that it makes a good affordable alternative to the more expensive stuff.

Renegade and Fox, nuff, said. As I outlined, I hear and read what I hear and read. I avoid Toronto as much as I can, why? I've been there and hate the place. Call me biased if you like. I have opinion as well for certain things, but at least I've been there. Toronto is too fast paced and too Liberal for my tastes. Ok, overall I survived being there, but drivers are insane and a lot of rude people there. I guess that can be said for most places, but Toronto seems to have it in spades. And besides, the Leafs suck. :lol: