Canada Safety Council pushing replica registration

[kullwarrior]

Originally Posted by AngelusNex

Also, I saw this in the news paper a month or 2 ago, before the safe airsoft thing, the people pushing it have absolutely no idea that they are trying to get people to willingly register illegality obtained gods...... why not impose a meth registry too... and child porn registry while they're at it.

These guys are referring to the UNCONTROLLED FIREARMS as replicas. It's like calling something magazines: clips.

Stuff included would be:
Safeairsoft
paintball (highly likely)
pellet gun
air gun.

[GuardianWolf]

ther are many problems with all of this, one is money, its gonna do like the gun registry, 2 out right bans of the products in question are possible and gonna happen, 3 i get alot of people in quebec come in to buy or look at the guns, so i find that poll is skewed(this is just my personal opinion for the soutshore/montreal/easter townships region), 4 the time its gonna take to pass this bill have it finalized and implemented the amount of air rifles pellets guns etc sold are gonna either go way up cause you had it before the date, or everyones just gona throw them out. but as someone else already stated, in our criminal code not just in quebec but in canada, any use of an item resembling any weapon(this case a firearm) is treated as a real weapon and the person(s) in use of such items to perpetrate a crime, or any act considered a crime or harm to some one else, are to be prosecuted to the extent if it actually was real, so yeah point a water pistol thats black at a cop expect to get shot

[shaharov]

Originally Posted by GuardianWolf

ther are many problems with all of this, one is money, its gonna do like the gun registry, 2 out right bans of the products in question are possible and gonna happen, 3 i get alot of people in quebec come in to buy or look at the guns, so i find that poll is skewed(this is just my personal opinion for the soutshore/montreal/easter townships region), 4 the time its gonna take to pass this bill have it finalized and implemented the amount of air rifles pellets guns etc sold are gonna either go way up cause you had it before the date, or everyones just gona throw them out. but as someone else already stated, in our criminal code not just in quebec but in canada, any use of an item resembling any weapon(this case a firearm) is treated as a real weapon and the person(s) in use of such items to perpetrate a crime, or any act considered a crime or harm to some one else, are to be prosecuted to the extent if it actually was real, so yeah point a water pistol thats black at a cop expect to get shot

Funny thing is that people arn't prosecuted like a real firearm (if at all) due to it being a "toy" gun. Great example recently was the driveby by couple of teens in Manitoba (http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=102815) Maybe if people realized that they would be prosecuted then we wouldn't have this. However, just because you may not get prosecuted doesn't mean u wont get shot. I dont know why people tangle with the police with airsoft guns.

[red_baroness]

Originally Posted by Thenooblord

you can own them, you just cant import them or buy them or sell them

Actually, Airsoft guns are legal to own, buy, sell, and import. The Canadian Firearms center has declared them “not a firearm” under the firearms act. They still are firearms in the eyes of the law, of course, so are pellet guns, BB guns under 495 feet per second, paintball guns, starter pistols and even nerf guns. The real factor in determining legality seems to be intent. If your intent is to own, use, or sell Airsoft guns for the purpose of playing Airsoft, then it is perfectly legal. Conversely, if you use one of the above-mentioned guns as theatrical replicas; you would be breaking the law. Not only would that gun become a ‘prohibited firearm’ in the eyes of the law, you could also potentially be charged with a prohibited weapons crime. Scary. So, the trick seems to be to always use the term “Airsoft” when referring to the guns, and never use “replica” (even if it says so right on the box).
Now I did hear a rumor that the RCMP were issuing tracking numbers, and blah blah blah, but I’m pretty sure that is BS. I can’t seem to find the numbers anywhere, and I know of several stores selling them legally, who have also never heard of this. Also, they have inquired with the RCMP, and were told that they are not tracking any Airsoft guns. There are several parameters that CBSA require to be met in order for them to allow the guns entry into Canada. It seems this is where the misconception of Airsoft legality arises- I could get into all this but my fingers are tired! But the long and short of it is that if your intent is to play Airsoft with your Airsoft gun then it is perfectly legal to buy, sell, own and import.

[TokyoSeven]

Originally Posted by red_baroness

Actually, Airsoft guns are legal to own, buy, sell, and import. The Canadian Firearms center has declared them “not a firearm” under the firearms act. They still are firearms in the eyes of the law, of course, so are pellet guns, BB guns under 495 feet per second, paintball guns, starter pistols and even nerf guns. The real factor in determining legality seems to be intent. If your intent is to own, use, or sell Airsoft guns for the purpose of playing Airsoft, then it is perfectly legal. Conversely, if you use one of the above-mentioned guns as theatrical replicas; you would be breaking the law. Not only would that gun become a ‘prohibited firearm’ in the eyes of the law, you could also potentially be charged with a prohibited weapons crime. Scary. So, the trick seems to be to always use the term “Airsoft” when referring to the guns, and never use “replica” (even if it says so right on the box).
Now I did hear a rumor that the RCMP were issuing tracking numbers, and blah blah blah, but I’m pretty sure that is BS. I can’t seem to find the numbers anywhere, and I know of several stores selling them legally, who have also never heard of this. Also, they have inquired with the RCMP, and were told that they are not tracking any Airsoft guns. There are several parameters that CBSA require to be met in order for them to allow the guns entry into Canada. It seems this is where the misconception of Airsoft legality arises- I could get into all this but my fingers are tired! But the long and short of it is that if your intent is to play Airsoft with your Airsoft gun then it is perfectly legal to buy, sell, own and import.

While airsoft guns may not be "firearms" they are still classified for the most part as replicas and replicas are prohibited devices to import. Isnt politics fun? He said she said telephone game through so many different government groups. The end result is that airsoft still exists in this country and thats good enough for me.

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by red_baroness

Actually, Airsoft guns are legal to own, buy, sell, and import. The Canadian Firearms center has declared them “not a firearm” under the firearms act.

On a case-by-case basis and it has nothing to do with the Firearms Act.

The real factor in determining legality seems to be intent. If your intent is to own, use, or sell Airsoft guns for the purpose of playing Airsoft, then it is perfectly legal. Conversely, if you use one of the above-mentioned guns as theatrical replicas; you would be breaking the law.

Please stop, you're dispensing misinformation.

[shaharov]

Originally Posted by red_baroness

Actually, Airsoft guns are legal to own, buy, sell, and import.

Airsoft Guns are clasified as Replica Firearms as per this clause

"replica firearm"
"replica firearm" means any device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm, and that itself is not a firearm, but does not include any such device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, an antique firearm;

in the Canadian Criminal Code 84.1

So as per the Criminal Code act these are Prohibited Devices

"prohibited device" means
(a) any component or part of a weapon, or any accessory for use with a weapon, that is prescribed to be a prohibited device,
(b) a handgun barrel that is equal to or less than 105 mm in length, but does not include any such handgun barrel that is prescribed, where the handgun barrel is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union,
(c) a device or contrivance designed or intended to muffle or stop the sound or report of a firearm,
(d) a cartridge magazine that is prescribed to be a prohibited device, or
(e) a replica firearm;

However, on grabbing the clauses I ran into an exception:

Unauthorized possession of prohibited weapon or restricted weapon
(2) Subject to subsection (4) and section 98, every person commits an offence who possesses a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, other than a replica firearm, or any prohibited ammunition, unless the person is the holder of a licence under which the person may possess it.

Section 91.2

Actually.. in all the criminal code the phrase "a prohibited device, other than a replica firearm" is used constantly. I never found a clause that has prohibited device without explicitly excluding replica firearms. Maybe we are allowed to own them (any Lawyers out there... please comment)

Regardless.. Law enforcement does not interpret the law but enforce what they believe to be the law (they can be wrong, why we have courts and appeal processes) This is from the RCMP Site dealing specifically with replica devices http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...plique-eng.htm

Replica Firearms
Fact Sheet

Here is some information on how the Firearms Act and Criminal Code apply to replica firearms. A replica firearm is a device that is not a real firearm, but that was designed to look exactly or almost exactly like a real firearm, other than an antique firearm.
Replica firearms are prohibited

To be prohibited as a replica firearm, a device must closely resemble an existing make and model of firearm. If it looks like an antique firearm, as defined by the Criminal Code and Criminal Code Regulations, it is not prohibited.

The Canadian Firearms Program receives many enquiries from people wondering whether an imitation firearm would be considered a replica if it resembles a real firearm in many ways, but it is made of clear or brightly coloured plastic, or is much smaller in size.

Many of these devices need to be assessed case by case. As a general rule, however, those made out of clear plastic and those that are a lot smaller than the real firearm are not prohibited replicas. Those that are brightly coloured might be prohibited, depending on other features.
Possessing or Acquiring Replica Firearms

As an individual, you may keep any replicas that you owned on December 1, 1998. You do not need a licence to possess a replica firearm and it does not have to be registered. However, you cannot acquire, make or import a replica firearm. If you take a replica firearm out of Canada, you cannot bring it back in.

If you are a business, you may possess, acquire or import replica firearms only if you have a valid Firearms Business Licence that allows you to possess prohibited device for an approved purpose.

So as far as law enforcement is concerned replica firearms are illegal and may be seized for destruction, which is why CBSA will seize airsoft guns coming across the border.

Seriously though, If there is a lawyer can they look at the exceptions of the criminal code, it looks like replica firearms have been excluded from most clauses dealing with prohibited devices (in fact all clauses, except the original definition).

On a side note.. Apparently Canada Safety Council claim that hybrid cars cause collisions. I think that they can't protect everyone from their own ignorance or stupidity

[red_baroness]

Originally Posted by The Saint

On a case-by-case basis and it has nothing to do with the Firearms Act.

That's exactly what I'm saying saint.

Please stop, you're dispensing misinformation.

Being a master of misinformation, I guess you'd know.

[red_baroness]

Originally Posted by shaharov

Airsoft Guns are clasified as Replica Firearms as per this clause
in the Canadian Criminal Code 84.1

So as per the Criminal Code act these are Prohibited Devices


However, on grabbing the clauses I ran into an exception:
Section 91.2

Actually.. in all the criminal code the phrase "a prohibited device, other than a replica firearm" is used constantly. I never found a clause that has prohibited device without explicitly excluding replica firearms. Maybe we are allowed to own them (any Lawyers out there... please comment)

Regardless.. Law enforcement does not interpret the law but enforce what they believe to be the law (they can be wrong, why we have courts and appeal processes) This is from the RCMP Site dealing specifically with replica devices http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...plique-eng.htm



So as far as law enforcement is concerned replica firearms are illegal and may be seized for destruction, which is why CBSA will seize airsoft guns coming across the border.

Seriously though, If there is a lawyer can they look at the exceptions of the criminal code, it looks like replica firearms have been excluded from most clauses dealing with prohibited devices (in fact all clauses, except the original definition).

On a side note.. Apparently Canada Safety Council claim that hybrid cars cause collisions. I think that they can't protect everyone from their own ignorance or stupidity

That's all well and good, but you didn't include a definition of "replica firearm" which can be found within the firearms act itself. Traditionally this includes the phrase "non-firing," or "theatrical."
So again it comes down to INTENT. Ever wonder why a store can sell bb guns, pellet, paintball, blank firing starter pistols, but CANNOT sell NON-FIRING REPLICAS. It's all intent.
Non-firing replicas are intended to simulate a real firearm and nothing else. Airsoft, BB, Pellet are intended for gaming and target shooting.
The former is illegal except for theatrical purposes (and then only with a wrangler's permit,) the latter is perfectly reasonable and lawful (so long as proper safety concerns are met.)
Ya digg?

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by red_baroness

Being a master misinformation I guess you'd know.

Let's see now....
Interviews with Canadian Firearms Program, check.
Consultation with CBSA, check.
Lived, breathed and dreamed Criminal Code and Firearms Act for 2 years, check.
Graduate paper based on airsoft-relevant legal research, check.
Said paper submitted to government think tank, check.
Regular cooperation with both above agencies, check.
Legal paperwork for everything I do, check.

Now, let's examine your original statement in detail.

Actually, Airsoft guns are legal to own, buy, sell, and import. The Canadian Firearms center has declared them “not a firearm” under the firearms act. They still are firearms in the eyes of the law, of course, so are pellet guns, BB guns under 495 feet per second, paintball guns, starter pistols and even nerf guns. The real factor in determining legality seems to be intent. If your intent is to own, use, or sell Airsoft guns for the purpose of playing Airsoft, then it is perfectly legal. Conversely, if you use one of the above-mentioned guns as theatrical replicas; you would be breaking the law. Not only would that gun become a ‘prohibited firearm’ in the eyes of the law, you could also potentially be charged with a prohibited weapons crime. Scary. So, the trick seems to be to always use the term “Airsoft” when referring to the guns, and never use “replica” (even if it says so right on the box).

Let's break the above up a bit, dividing them where the trains of thought change lanes.

Actually, Airsoft guns are legal to own, buy, sell, and import. The Canadian Firearms center has declared them “not a firearm” under the firearms act. They still are firearms in the eyes of the law, of course, so are pellet guns, BB guns under 495 feet per second, paintball guns, starter pistols and even nerf guns.

First of all, the law is two fold as far as airsofters are concerned. You must meet a minimum set of numbers and not exceed a maximum set of numbers. The people running Airsoft Canada seem to be exercising information control over the minimum number, so I'll leave it out. But only if you show the airsoft gun in question has met that legal number is it classified as uncontrolled firearm.

And that minimum number is very high and excludes all airsoft pistols. I can't make this clear enough, there is currently no legal opaque GBB possible.

The second component of the law is a muzzle energy and velocity limit, above which all firearms become controlled (and therefore illegal AND unsafe for airsoft use). This is where you left out muzzle energy. It's a combination of exceeding 500 feet per second and 5.7 Joules. You must meet one and exceed the other, minimum. For example, paintball regularly exceeds 5.7 Joules, but fall far short of 500 FPS.

Finally, neither starter pistols nor Nerf guns are "firearms" under Canadian law. The term "firearm" refers to a very specific set of conditions in Canada that no Nerf gun or starter pistol meets in their default state. Only if they have been specifically modified beyond their original state, then they may be a "firearm".

The real factor in determining legality seems to be intent. If your intent is to own, use, or sell Airsoft guns for the purpose of playing Airsoft, then it is perfectly legal.

Here is where you're getting confused. The real factor in determining legality was in the previous paragraph, and it's an issue of classification. All else being equal, the problem with the legality of airsoft in Canada has always been an issue of what they are, not the legitimacy of the activity (barring criminal use).

Government crackdown on airsoft businesses have always been because they were illegally importing and selling prohibited devices. It did not matter what the intent of the seller and buyers were with regard to use (provided the activity itself wasn't illegal).

Now, airsoft the activity does apply as a defence against a number of use-related criminal offences, thanks to the precedence created by paintball.

However, airsoft guns are not recognized as "airsoft" guns in Canadian law. Operationally, they are merely part of the "Air, Spring or Gas" group. There is no statutory or regulatory differentiation between airsoft, pellet and paintball. Distinction is made at the implementation level based on the necessity of different ammunition types, but that's it.

Conversely, if you use one of the above-mentioned guns as theatrical replicas; you would be breaking the law. Not only would that gun become a ‘prohibited firearm’ in the eyes of the law, you could also potentially be charged with a prohibited weapons crime.

And here is where you go really far off the track. I'm not even quite sure what you're getting at, unless you're somehow referring to s. 87 (Pointing a Firearm). But if that is the case, the fact that the setting is a theatrical production would provide a lawful excuse that is far more concrete than any airsoft or paintball intent.

Scary. So, the trick seems to be to always use the term “Airsoft” when referring to the guns, and never use “replica” (even if it says so right on the box).

It is not a trick, and thinking and wording it as such is probably not good. When anything is worded as a "replica", it is flagged by the system as such, and goes back into the same classification issue as before.

Originally Posted by red_baroness

That's all well and good, but you didn't include a definition of "replica firearm" which can be found within the firearms act itself. Traditionally this includes the phrase "non-firing," or "theatrical."
So again it comes down to INTENT. Ever wonder why a store can sell bb guns, pellet, paintball, blank firing starter pistols, but CANNOT sell NON-FIRING REPLICAS. It's all intent.
Non-firing replicas are intended to simulate a real firearm and nothing else. Airsoft, BB, Pellet are intended for gaming and target shooting.
The former is illegal except for theatrical purposes (and then only with a wrangler's permit,) the latter is perfectly reasonable and lawful (so long as proper safety concerns are met.)
Ya digg?

It seems to me you are woefully under informed about the legal history of airsoft in Canada.

http://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcpc/doc...009bcpc50.html

You may wish to consult the above court decision, which pretty clearly illustrates why there is no "intent to airsoft" defence. That, or the half dozen or so CBSA/CITT failed appeals of "intent to airsoft".

[shaharov]

Saint is right here, and for reference in my previous post I did include the definition as defined in the criminal code of canada. I didn't find a definition of replica or prohibited devices in the firearms act (as replicas arnt firearms until they meet the defition of firearms, at which time they fail to become replicas as the definition of replica states that it isnt a firearm). All in all saints right except you can modify the muzzle velocity in an aeg and some gbb pistols (kjw by adjusting hammer spring) so that they are cassified as an unregistered, unlicensed firearm, like a pellet gun, but I wouldn't allow these on a field as they can seriously injure people. this is the bases for the new cansafe guns firing at 430+fps.

All in all Saint is correct here

sorry for typos... im doing this from my phone

[red_baroness]

Originally Posted by shaharov

Saint is right here, and for reference in my previous post I did include the definition as defined in the criminal code of canada. I didn't find a definition of replica or prohibited devices in the firearms act (as replicas arnt firearms until they meet the defition of firearms, at which time they fail to become replicas as the definition of replica states that it isnt a firearm). All in all saints right except you can modify the muzzle velocity in an aeg and some gbb pistols (kjw by adjusting hammer spring) so that they are cassified as an unregistered, unlicensed firearm, like a pellet gun, but I wouldn't allow these on a field as they can seriously injure people. this is the bases for the new cansafe guns firing at 430+fps.

All in all Saint is correct here

sorry for typos... im doing this from my phone

It clearly says in the Regina V. Willy Wong document that he was importing them as THEATRICAL REPLICAS (he even presented his theatrical replica license.) . Meaning his INTENT was to sell to licensed film wranglers NOT the general public.
He brought them in as replicas so that's what they stayed. INTENT again is the key.

Thanks for proving my point Saint

[The Saint]

Originally Posted by red_baroness

It clearly says in the Regina V. Willy Wong document that he was importing them as THEATRICAL REPLICAS. Meaning his INTENT was to sell to lisenced film wranglers. That's illegal like I said earlier.
He brought them in as replicas. So of course they stayed replicas. INTENT again is the key.

Thanks for proving my point Saint

You're putting the cart before the horse.

In order for anything to be imported into Canada, it has to be classified as a particular type of goods. The classification is done based on the operation characteristics, appearance and material. Goods are classified not based on declared intent of the importer, but first and foremost by CBSA and RCMP judgement of the characteristics, appearance and material. You can't import cocaine simply because your intent is to make an hour glass with it. Some things are illegal to import regardless of your declared intent.

In the case of airsoft guns, the traditional classification is that of a replica firearm, because of their appearance. Replica firearms are prohibited devices, which makes them illegal to import and sell in Canada. The replica classification has nothing to do with theatrical use, it is a description of the observed nature of the goods in question.

Airsoft guns were classified as replica firearms because they looked real, and used in movies because they looked real. Airsoft guns were not classified as replicas because they were used in movies.

Only a business with a specific licence can import and sell prohibited devices, and then only for specific reasons. Will stepped beyond those specific reasons.

Canadian law has drawn a line between replica firearms and uncontrolled firearm, and that line is based on physical performance. If you can and do prove the gun shoots a certain way, it's a uncontrolled firearm. If can't or don't, it's a replica firearm. An airsoft gun's classification is not based on what you say you're going to do with the airsoft gun, otherwise you can import a Real Sword on the intent of using it as a hammer.

[red_baroness]

Originally Posted by shaharov

Saint is right here, and for reference in my previous post I did include the definition as defined in the criminal code of canada. I didn't find a definition of replica or prohibited devices in the firearms act (as replicas arnt firearms until they meet the defition of firearms, at which time they fail to become replicas as the definition of replica states that it isnt a firearm). All in all saints right except you can modify the muzzle velocity in an aeg and some gbb pistols (kjw by adjusting hammer spring) so that they are cassified as an unregistered, unlicensed firearm, like a pellet gun, but I wouldn't allow these on a field as they can seriously injure people. this is the bases for the new cansafe guns firing at 430+fps.

All in all Saint is correct here

sorry for typos... im doing this from my phone

You should try looking at the AIR GUN FACT SHEET on the RCMP WEBSITE

[dutchydoc]

I have a free shovel, you know for when you need to start digging yourself out.

Why would you argue with a guy that has first hand knowledge of the laws you are arguing over?