Definition of "IN"

[theshaneler]

Originally Posted by takagari

You can't ask someone to commit 100% and not give the same commitment back rain or shine.

this.
Flakers piss everyone off, and i believe should be be penalized. but what you pulled is a dick move. you are essentially saying i might be running a game on this date, who wants to come?
then another organizer comes along and says, hey guys i AM running a game on this date, who wants to come?
when they all drop out of your game and go to the other, you get mad.

players will obviously go for the sure shot, getting mad at them for doing so is your issue.

OPs should be run rain or shine, if the weather is really to bad, reschedule the op later in the year on a free weekend. If the OP seems like it will be good enough, people will come to the rescheduled date. but having them commit to back to back weekends right off the hop is not right.

[cadpat_tact]

Originally Posted by THe_Silencer

These are really bad examples. All of events you mentioned have severe consequences for being missed and many can be rescheduled w/o too many issues. If you miss any of these dates you could end up fined, jailed, missing your vacation, failing a course, not getting a job, or being castrated. Airsoft is a game and missing one should NOT be compared to far more important events in life. A more accurate comparison is missing a LAN party. Sure the host will be sad if not many people show but you're only there to play a game people.

I couldn't agree with you more, Silencer.

If someone is going to be as unreasonable about this as the OP, I'd rather not attend their games in the first place.

[hollywood...]

Given adequate time ie: 1 week before an event should be considered acceptable to back out (not only do adults plans change but so do kids sports schedules)

Posting "In" and not having the courtesy to inform the host that you can not make it, or just not showing should result in the offender being identified so that others can be made aware.

[Pinard]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

A posting of "in"

is a contract with the venue owner/ Host

In exchange for the promise to attend and pay the game fee, the host agrees to provide the game services.

Posting "in" and then jamming out is exactly the same as "flaking" on a deal to purchase something.

"tentative" means nothing and should NEVER be posted ..

"IN" means you will be there, you have the money , you have a ride, and you are committed to attend.

true BUT, tentative is useful IMO to say, I have something to check before I confirm my presence (example: having your day off the job, your gun is at a gun doc and it should be ready but you are not sure. etc.)
I shows the host that if everything is alright then you will attend.

If you say IN, you are 110% sure you will attend unless a nuclear war begins (ie, you're gun doesent work or your kid is diying)

[hollywood...]

Having to commit to 2 weekends is not entirely fair,.... some people can make one and not the other

- Do you have kids? if not, wait until you do then ask yourself this question

Originally Posted by Trev140_0

Battle of Evermore.

Here are the dates:

Feb 11 Feb 25th.


Reason for 2 dates is to have a back up in case the weather does not cooperate. However if both dates turn out ok, there may be TWO games.

You MUST be capable of being in for BOTH dates. Assume 3 days prior to the first date for firm up, and if that fails we go to the second.[/B][/SIZE]

[MaciekA]

People have a range of strong to weak opinions on this. The key theme here is that herding cats works best when rules and contractual expectations are clearly defined. Often in this community things are left unsaid or unspoken, which hurts you guys more often than you realize.

You can't expect ad-hoc game organization to happen with the pragmatic efficiency of the Japanese train system.

I sort of giggled when I read Brian's contractual definition of "in", mainly because this game has hordes of under 25s who can still barely tie their shoes, let alone schedule themselves weeks ahead of time. Thing is, Brian is one of the more unambiguous communicators on the board and communicates in a way that commands attention and respect. If we could clone his style, things might go more smoothly. Not all games and personalities posted on this board have that level of clarity.

I think game organizers should stop fighting the natural impulses of the market and instead roll with it. Interest in a given game isn't a binary state. Want to hedge risk? Design a system that handles it. Krap101 just gave us a big hint above.

Consider the various states of interest and types of people involved in the runup to a game:

1) 100% "in" - will come no matter what.
2) 100% "in" - will come if they can get a ride.
3) 50/50 "in" - wishes to express their interest in the game but will know better closer to the date. This person is not evil, and not a contract-breaker. The system should allow for them to exist.
4) Flaker - not intending to come but ins anyway (this is probably a small group). A community should systematically shun these folks, but with the right payment/event system, they won't even be a problem.
5) Someone who is willing to pay in full weeks ahead of time and is willing to lose some or all of their fee if they can't make it.
6) Someone who is willing to pre-register and pay a small fee to do so but would like to pay the rest on the day-of to hedge their risk
7) Someone who has a truck/bus/van and can provide rides from a rallying point. These people should be rewarded with a discount or VIP status if they successfully provide a ride to others because they bring more business and/or stability to YOU.
9) Someone who has guns and/or batteries to rent - these people can help solidify the "in"-ness of other people. How many friends have you invited to airsoft who said "but I don't have a gun/mask/goggles/camo/etc" ?
10) Vendors who are able to provide BBs or retailer support and bring more marketing to you (and vice versa)
11) People who would love to show up but refuse to go through the rigamarole of signing up on some "forum"
12) 100% "in" unless bad weather. Some people run external LiPos and/or trigger computers that won't handle rain well. Some people just don't consider it fun.

etc.. etc.. If you don't want some of these types of people in your game, be clear and state it. That should be a theme actually: If you don't want people who can't handle a 2-date requirement, etc, then be clear "we can go on and play without you but don't sign up. No hard feelings". Etc.

But of particular interest is case #4, the outright flaker. Wouldn't it be nice for your event organizer method/system/whatever to not be so brittle as to be brought down, or at least not have your day ruined by a flaker?... Yet why do people continue to design situations in which they get terrorized by these types of participants?

It's no surprise that lots of people are having this issue though, we're not allowing the lessons of one organizer permeate to the next, there's really no guiding force here, no software assistance, no nothing. Bulletin board software written in PHP would be my "worst of class" exemplar in nearly every social category except the sharing of cat pictures, and it even blows at that task. We should stop shoe-horning it into every single role imaginable.

Out there on the web, event hosting is a partially solved problem. We're in the age of free and infinite software on the web for every purpose imaginable... The tools are out there, eventbrite.com , meetup.com , etc.. Eventbrite even handles discounting and early-bird fees, etc. These aren't expensive tools. We're charging more money for Airsoft games than most business networking nights in Downtown Toronto and they use these tools.. Don't see why we can't.

Since the biggest risk involved is money, this problem needs first and foremost to be solved as a payment issue. So to sum up:

1) Create the right incentives and penalties for people to put their money where their mouth is. Discounts, pre-registration, flakeouts, non-refundable portions.
2) Stop hitting the reset button every time and start codifying best practices and helping each other do this well. Improve "the system" over time.
3) Stop trying to do all the work yourselves and stop using forum posts as an event signup tool. Use the tools out there, eventbrite, meetup, etc. The forum can instead become a place to discuss the scenario, post pictures and maps, and get suggestions, trash-talk etc.
4) Stop mixing different systems. A signup list on 2 forums and 1 facebook page is a great way to make it too much work for yourself and turn any organizer into a whiny bitch instead of a happy organizer.
5) Stop being so inflexible and allow for some customer segmentation. Categorize and your players according to their seriousness ..

The market works two ways. We come together to produce these games as a group, players and organizers. So above all, reward loyalty and reliability.

Heck, have a loyalty program -- That's what Trev and Dave (gfh) have been doing in Hamilton and it is beginning to pay dividends. All they had to do was decide not to run a sloppy game series and presto, it's working.

[m102404]

First...I've never seen an actual game/event thread where all the host asked if people would post that they are tentative or sad that they can't make it. They only care about who is coming.

"In" means
- I have read and fully understood the rule/expectations/conditions/etc of the game thread. No matter what I think/feel/historically may have done...what's in the game thread's post is what it is. And I agree with it for the event.

- I will be there, on time, ready to go

- I am prepared (physically, kit/gun/whatever is required) to be a fully committed participant for the entire event.


No more complicated than that.

"flaking"...I take it to mean posting "In" and then not showing up...no reason, no explanation. Posting "In" and then having to post "Out" later on...that happens.

Since with very few exceptions EVERYONE should have an idea of what's going on for the next 5-7 days of their life...and since planning a day in your life out as much as 2 weeks in advance isn't impossible...posting "In" or "Out" should be a pretty firm thing that can be made well before game day. In every day life...if you can't sort your life out for the next couple of days and if you can't do a bit of planning around a date in the future...then you are a flake. Some people are habitual flakes and don't have it in them...it's just that it doesn't work very well for any structured game where other people end up depending on participation of others.

If you don't like that/can't do it...then just stick to the skirmish pick-up open to whomever shows up don't care games. (see first point)

Memel/Boche is bang on too. Players who have their head straight on committing to being "In" are fully expecting in return from the host that the game is on & as described. They're pretty pissed if the host flakes. (I think that happened out east once where the host neglected to tell all the guys signed up that the game was canceled....don't think it went over well).

If you're going to host some complicated "might be this day or the next you're committing to playing one and then if that doesn't happen you've already committed to being there for the next date so don't don't flake on that other date either or you're going to be added to our not welcome list"...well to each their own, but I can't see too many people with actual other things to do being able to commit to that.

[Short Round]

Originally Posted by McKee

Airsoft is a hobby not a job. I have hosted games before, and people who back out are frustrating... but real life has to take priority over a hobby for a healthy well adjusted adults. School, work, and family commitments should always trump play time. I will agree that people should be able to manage time effectively enough to not have to back out, but many commitments such as school and work don't give you notice that far in advance. If you want people to post "in" a month or two in advance, expect alot of variation. If you want people to be 100% sure, expect alot of last minute sign ups. I think it's unacceptable to remain "in" then simply not show up to the game however, and if you have to back out you should give the host as much lead time as possible.

Translated the word right out of my mouth

[TPM001]

To me, "in" means that to the best of your knowledge and in consideration of current circumstances, you have all the intention of attending the game.

But not all of us have crystal balls. Circumstances do change, despite the fact that your intent has not. Punish the change in intent, but not the change in circumstance.

The questions become:

1) how do you tell the two apart?
2) the host is still left with an attendance issue. How to deal with that?

Pre-pay with no refund? I'm cool with that, but I'm sure I'm the minority here. Most likely, we just have to accept the fact that there will be a certain percentage of flakers for every game and the host just needs to factor that into the price of the game.

I'm definitely not supportive of some sort of "flakers" list or other such witch hunts.

[Trev140_0]

I really appreciate all these posts guys. I am not a professional game poster by any means and anyone who knows me undertands I am not coming with than angle.

I will say it one more time. The reason why there were TWO dates posted was in case of bad weather. Anyone who has come to these games knows this is not if its "raining". It means if we are going to have a date when its -25 and 40KM winds.

I dont give a crap if anyone thinks this is ok to play in cause this is "mil sim". If this was not clear, WHICH IT WAS, there were 2 options's

1) dont sign up
2) PM me for deatails.


I am not going to appologize to the people who felt this was some how not clear cause they know this is bull sh@$.


The reason for the weather was to protect players who are new who might not be preparred to handle 4 hours in -25C

Thats the reasons, and now they are clear.

[McKee]

MaciekA,, I think you make very good points in regard to the tools available to us. This bb has been the standard format for years in regards to hosting, but if there are better tools, then we should use them.

However: The issue is that many hosts do not own the field they are hosting on. As such they do not collect any money for themselves. I have hosted at finchs field and flagraiders, and I (as I suspect many other hosts) do not make any money from game fees. All of it goes to the field owner and as such hosts have little control over modifying the prices, so incentives become problematic.

[Gish]

From a game organizer standpoint I take two different views of "In" and it all depends on the game day/type of game being run on the day.

For skirmishe days if you post "In" and don't show up. Sure whatever, we were just having an easy/fun day no big deal.

For Milsim/Fully planned day: If you post "In" and don't show up that puts a black mark in the book. Usually because this game required output from the admin in time/effort to plan organize and sometimes involved monetary output for props/field items.

However to combat that here locally for any sort of big game we require you to be fully pre-paid a week in advance with signups being cut off a few days before.
Yes some people think it's inconvenient but when we plan a 17 hour milsim involving rental of a large number of military vehicles we need to know both the numbers attending and the expected cash input in order to plan properly.

We understand that yes Airsoft is a hobby and lots of people have other obligations (family, etc) so we do our best to cater to all. I think other organizers need to understand this and adjust there system if it's a major issue for them.

[MaciekA]

One really good point you guys have brought up is that a "flake" can be converted into a non-flake simply by warning the organizers ahead of time that they won't be able to make it -- whether it be 48 hours, a week, or whatever, ahead of time. This is one of those things we should put into the boilerplate for all game organizers.

This thread is gonna turn into a boilerplate right ?

[Trev140_0]

All interesting, and its funny how the main question I asked got avoided by a few and other got the message.

I asked very simply what each person values as marking "in" for a game posting. Which means accepting ALL the terms of the game:

Dates, conditions, FPS, guns. When the person puts the "in" -to me they say they agree.

I guess at the end of the day, some look at these games, dont read it, look at the details and post "in".

But my gut feeling, is the 80+ people who posted "in" on this game we are puting on... they are more than fully aware of what the game says, and are currently preparing for both these days for this game.

Simple.

And that is the bottom line.

One date, 2 dates, 10 dates.... read the posting and if you dont want to go, cant go, dont know....dont post "in" in the first place.



But I guess that is why poeple dont like posting "tent" eh....

[McKee]

At the end of the day you can adopt whatever definition of "in" you want... ultimately its the players definition of In that is going to affect whether they show up or not. The only thing you can do about it as host is bar them from coming to future games, but as Boche pointed out, you will find your player base has shrunk considerably.