Should CO2 SMG/handguns be allowed in games ?

[Cliffradical]

Originally Posted by Ricochet

Hard disagree. Although I don't typically wear a mask (my choice), I've had two teeth shot out and plenty of bleeders, fat lips, etc. realistically you want more protection not less. Anyways, no one wants to get hit in the face so they can feel their hits.

There's a funny thing in here where I agree and disagree.
There's so many situations where only a face is presented as a target, or where one stands up/ leans out into a field of suppressive fire, or pure oddball accidents, that my personal opinion is if you aren't wearing face protection any damage you receive is your own goddamn fault.

I most often go without when I'm outdoors, and that's my own, personal, adult problem.

If a group that I play with says "Don't do it" I won't shoot anyone in the face. Otherwise, the "Bubble of invulnerability" which extends from the top of the helmet to the sternum seems pretty retarded.

Same with wearing safety glasses without a lanyard. What the fuck were you thinking?

[Ricochet]

Oh yeah, I totally agree. I meant getting shot in the face isn't pleasant or okay.

[Cliffradical]

Yes, no problem there.

I just wish groups would be more upfront with their face rules, and specifically who bears the burden of responsibility in most common situations where a dude gets a mouth full. A demonstration of what an airsoft gun does to a watermelon every now and again would be a good idea.

I think a lot of players run without a cage because if the salty old guys do it it must be fine, right?
In reality, the salty old guys either have a good dental plan, or figure their teeth are bad enough it doesn't matter, or are dumb as doornails.
I fit into the latter two categories, fully consenting. I honestly can't help but roll my eyes at disputes I've seen or heard about.

[Ricochet]

Myself, I'm starting to wear a modified face piece that just covers my nose and mouth, but it's always been easier to go without. I recommend all youth wear them so their parents don't have to pay for their grills, but it's at the players discretion. I accept full responsibility for not wearing one, but getting a face full of rounds sucks for sure, but it happens. I got a grenade round to the face point blank last time I played (100 plus rounds?). It was hilarious and inconvenient.

[mikebarkski]

is it just me or do other people agree that no airsoft shot will hurt as bad as a paintball to the same spot

[Ricochet]

Hurt worse, but for a shorter time. Paintball rounds are larger and therefore carry more kinetic force, so their velocity regulations are lower. Paintballs also cover more area during a strike effectively dispersing the damage. You are far more likely to get a large welt or bruise from a paintball and clearly feel the force of the object, whereas airsoft will likely sting more and break skin, as it is smaller and travelling faster. Not to mention, airsoft will get into the corner of your nose, between your nuckles, in your ear, etc, which are so sensitive you'll be swearing and jumping up and down. Either one isn't a big deal for the lost part. I've been shot so many times rarely does it bother me.

[mikebarkski]

Originally Posted by Cliffradical

The problem lies in the 'average player' not really understanding the differences in power between guns, and the effects on human skin.
it falls upon the organizer to check and regulate everything being brought onto the field.

I personally believe that any Co2 handgun should be subject to chrono check, simply because there is so much variance between manufacturers, between guns, and even between mags in some guns (pistols which can accept both Co2 and Propane mags will chrono differently on each propellant type).
Some Co2 guns run at ~300fps (TF-11) while others run at ~470-500fps (every Dan Wesson revolver). It has to be case-by-case and people have to realize that ~350fps is still absolutely outdoor viable.

I'm going to use this space while I'm here to suggest that every game organizer institutes an outright ban on Dan Wesson revolvers unless the user is known to be reasonable and is 'sniping' with them. There is no significant drop in fps when moving to a higher weight bb, and the lowest I have seen them chrono is 460fps, even on the 4". This means that these guns can operate well over 2 joules.
If the gun has been modified to shoot under 400, be sure to test at least 10 shots. If 6 shots run 360, 2 run 350, and 2 run 460 it's still a 460fps gun.

Are you saying that the Dan Wesson Revolver is good for sniping? or that it has good range? I am curious cause i was thinkin of gettin a 2.5 inch revolver just to have a near-replica revolver (not to take to skirmish with)

[Theesire]

If you're wearing proper head gear (goggles, face mesh, helmet?) and something with sleeves, I don't see the issue with being hit with even perhaps 450fps at close ranges, I wouldn't mind.
One thing I really liked about Nightfall was the lack of a minimum engagement distance and the higher fps means better range in most situations (as well as not losing your shot because it hit a fucking leaf).
We should all do best to remember that airsoft is quite simply a combat sport, and like all combat sports there are risks associated with playing if proper safety precaution is not taken.

[Cliffradical]

Theesire: Hooray for the reasonable opinion!

mike: Not really.
When I wrote that post years ago, the Dan Wessons were new to Canada and selling like hotcakes.
The problem was, people saw a 'handgun' and thought that it should be used as a 'handgun' where the speeds they were shooting was more inline with the limits for a 'sniper rifle'.
Many groups required those using hot 'sniper rifles' to rigidly observe a minimum engagement distance or MED (usually 60ft, and many groups still do). That meant pulling a Dan Wesson as a secondary would be grossly violating the MED for high FPS guns. Coupled with the HUGE problems with 'joule creep' in gas guns vs. air compression guns (read up on this), and you could have a seriously dangerous airgun pointed at people in CQB ranges. Not good.

'Sniping' with one is a tough issue, because IIRC they didn't/ don't have any real, adjustable hopup system. A few different mod schemes existed/ exist to add a hopup and/ or lower the FPS, but none were universally successful at the time of my post.
Mods to lower the FPS which were available at the time were deemed unsuccessful by a tech I was working under at the time, due to their wild inconsistency.

My point was that they should be treated as 'Sniper rifles' (MED, used by a person known to not be a shitbird) or banned, not that they'd make a good one.
I have no idea what the deal with them is these days, maybe someone can enlighten us.

As for paintball vs. airsoft, I've done both exhaustively. Paintball will give you big ol' bruises, but airsoft will give you deep tissue damage and brutal infections. Win some, lose some either way.

They'll both destroy your eyes and knock out your teeth, that's for sure.

[mikebarkski]

Ive definately had bleeders, including lip bleeders and my buddy said i got his front tooth but it didnt chip it (i was about 60-70ft out but it was with the KWC Uzi)...my friends and i play with a one-layer rule when it comes to the chest and it does make it more fun when you can feel your hits, and we all just were glasses but this thread makes me wanna use the paintball mask, and a chrono tester thingy...

I want a gas revolver with really good range and consistent accuracy but for comfort and looks i want the 2.5inch ones....will those two wants clash with eachother? i have hear that barrel length greatly affect the joules/fps...

[Ricochet]

It can have an effect. Really you want a good hop-up and high quality barrel. Once the BB stabilizes in the barrel, extra barrel doesn't help you. Typically pistols don't have the range of other platforms, but it isn't necessarily short barrels that are the cause. A few pistols have been known to have decent range over others, but pistols are typically CQB go-tos and not effective primary's.

[pzrwest]

Just curious how does one swap out batteries when playing war games? Do they do time outs to change batteries? ... just curious is all

[cetane]

Originally Posted by pzrwest

Just curious how does one swap out batteries when playing war games? Do they do time outs to change batteries? ... just curious is all

Change it out like changing a mag or clearing a malfunction. Find some cover and do it. No time out for that. It does suck when you have something that isn't super easy to change battery on

[Ricochet]

Yup. Change it at your own risk. If I'm pinned down and absolutely must change my battery right then, I'll pull out my pistol as insurance. That being said, battery swaps are meant to be quick, so if there's screws involved or something else complex then you may consider changing your battery system. If I'm assuming correct and you would use WWII weapons instead of modern tactical weapons, then you probably don't want to add modern stocks or mod your gun much, etc. So maybe change it to a push pin release instead of something more time consuming. Another option, and frankly a totally reasonable one, you'll get shot a ton in game, so you could just call yourself out, go back to respawn and chafe your battery there.

[WildBill357]

I never liked FPS limits over 450-500....however yesterday i had BB go halfway into my inner-elbow vien from a dan wesson at about 4 ft out....i dont blame the shooter or the rules...i came around a corner and got lit up at close range, my bad...if i want to blame someone other then me for that i dont think i should be playing with these toy guns...i also only play outside and really cant use .2s for their inaccuracy, so i like high fps....not to ignore the safety aspect, i tell ppl to wear long sleave underarmor like shirts that way it still hurt...sorry, but if it doesnt hurt i dont really wanna play, maybe that makes me a sick and twisted individual but its how i feel about the hobby. having to pinch the bb halfway out my vien and back through a few layers of skin didnt really chang my opinion on fps... it just means that glasses maynot be enough for me anymore, and masks could become mandatory at my events (on my private property) that allow 450-500 for a max limit....
And i love the kwc uzi...regardless of the kwc part its worth the $200, and if you have spare mags its great, i have had friends say theyd take a decent GBBP over it in any game, so SMGs are definately a personal preference