Petitions

[Goldman]

Originally Posted by Bakes

I read one post where one guy recommended that someone type up a letter that represents what we all want and everyone uses that letter to send to MP's. I agree, we dont need everyone sending their factless, uneducated letters off to the people higher up. Thats why this needs to be organized. And signed petitions that have 5000+ signatures hold more weight that just a letter with a few signatures. The petition thing is a good idea wether you want to believe it or not.
EDIT:
Oh and when you get that letter and petition with 5000 signatures, dont just send to one MP, get a big huge stack of brown envelopes and send a package off to every MP in the country.

Actually, if one MP recives a number of letters from within his constituency, he/she will pay far more attention to it, than a generic petition with 5000 signatures from all over the country. You have to appeal to the politicians sense of self preservation.

[Jixton]

Originally Posted by Daes

And if you had bother to read anything posted here and on ASC you would realize that people are already doing work here in Canada and that a wealth of information is available regarding what the UK went through with airsoft laws. But no, that is okay, we can just keep running around with our heads cut off sending out poorly written letters to our MP's and running useless petitions... This kind of scare happens every year and all the N00BS run around going OMFG!!!111one!!! we are all going to die. So no, drop this BS and let the PROFESSIONALS do their work. Sending our poorly written letters and petitions is not going to help the cause, only hinder it. There is no spirit being killed here, just mass hysteria of people who are acting no different then the very soccer moms at the root of the problem...

I would like to know who are those professionals you are talking about.
If work is being done can you give us some information about what they are doing? There is no information given to the comunity so poeple like Bakes are trying to do somethings.
All i know is i don't know much about law and about who to negociate with so i stay away and wait...... And i'm glad that somethings are done even if it's only petitions. It proove that someone is trying to help the Airsoft.

Thank you.

[KaOz]

Originally Posted by Bakes

I dont think we would want this. The main concern on theyre mind is public safety period. The PAL idea would probably be the best idea out there yet if they were to regulate. We dont want them controlling the price of our guns.

PAL does seem like the best idea... and unfortunately, *reality knocking here*... if they end up controlling the price of our airsoft products - then so be it - as long as we can play in a legit form and without hassle.

You want the PAL idea + have ourselves regulate the pricing?... keep in mind that you are asking for too much. You can just have it your way all the time and if it means some sacrifice, then so be it.

Cheers,
KaOz.

[Luckyorwhat]

Technically the price of airsoft guns would go down if they were considered firearms. Look at prices in the US, then in Canada - the difference is the import difficulties. Then compare prices of firearms in the US and in Canada, they're near parity.

I read one post where one guy recommended that someone type up a letter that represents what we all want and everyone uses that letter to send to MP's.

Yea we tried that a few times, but before we could even get a mission statement together we got the friendly admins letting us know we ought to stfu.

As you've heard by now, it's all been tried before so you shouldn't try, and there are things going on you couldn't comprehend. The proper term is 'Elitist', and maybe I'm prejudiced or maybe it's no co-incidence, but the elitists mostly seem to reside in or near Ontario. Who'd 'a figured.

What we need is a devolution of aspects of the criminal code down to provincial levels, giving the feds control of things that only affect more than one province. That way Ont. could live in their paradise they're creating and leave the rest of us alone.

[Kimbo]

I don't think anyones playing the elitist card yet. These things take time to prepare, and I believe that the seriousness of it this time is causing some to prepare a more polished approach.

Why no info? There probably isn't any more that hasn't already been divulged.

Lets ALL get organized before we start down the path. We have to come off as a professional community who are leading an organized and well thought out cause.

[lt_poncho]

Personally I think there should be more desire to coordinate one's efforts than to valiantly proclaim they are 'doing something' by 'speaking to someone'.

Nothing say's we're earthworms like gaggling around half-bit's of information.

[Dracheous]

Though, KoAz, I must admit that talking to another member here in private that there is one problem for your approach. You're in journalism ((you stated this in another thread)) and that can really detour peoples trust for you.

Also, there is only a limited assistance the petition itself would get you. I think you'd spawned this off an earlier post by me, however I think you missed something. The petition would be helpful, because it would show the size of this sub-culture that is airsoft. Not Soft-air which is a counter-culture aimed at using the guns for unsafe and possible illegal actions. There has to be many changes made to the image of airsoft, however these are not meant to be made so that we present this to the general public. Jumping in their faces armed to the teeth with guns that look real is just going to make someone loose control of their bowels, and not open their ears. Those changes are meant to be made for when people come looking in. The PAL would give the airsoft group validity to their care for the responsibility to these guns, making it a viable idea. People need to let go of the idea that we would need to register these things if we got a PAL subsection; perhaps even open such a sub-section as BB so that even those Cross-man "Nighthawks" that someone mentioned earlier would require a PAL to purchase. A PAL only permits a fire arms owner to "possess" and "Acquire" fire-arms, you can't just go start blasting deer with it; there are channels for that as there are channels for bird hunting. If we did get a sub-class labled "BB" under the PAL, then one would need that, meaning police would no longer have NEARLY as much trouble with minors using these things for unsafe and possibly illegal actions. Instead you'd be getting parents to HAVE to take their part in the safe handling of these guns.

Also, some newer people to airsoft get mixed up on what the real danger to this sport is and thats the appearance of these guns. The airsoft gun is far to real for anyone to decide between the real and fake from any distance or with out cracking open the actions or bodies. The BB itself is only the second most danger. We can fix the danger of the BB using goggles for games, but we can't fix the appearance with out sacrificing the point to this sport.

The petition as I said is good, but ONLY to show the size of this sub-culture as that is what it is. However it can't get us anywhere in making this sub-culture NOT appear as a counter-culture as the general public will see a machine gun as a BAD thing. The PAL is a good idea, and next the idea is to figure out where to go with that. However, it seems to draw more lines in our group than anything else at this point. Who does what?

ASC is a great forum, but thats what it is a forum. The mods here are great at keeping the forum under control, but they do not represent everyone and all their veiws neither. That is why we have other forums, there are regional, and provincial forums set up as well. And since everyone wants to jump into the clash here and get their fist up for the "saving" of airsoft its not going to get us anywhere. No one person here could stand up and say "I'll save it!" ((Sit down Greylocks :P)) Because someone else will stand up and say "No, that won't work." Just like it has been here. One person stands up and tries to make a new petition, gets negative response and joksters signing the petition; and that just gets us nothing. Where as we have others saying "Well this group has it under control and are working for it!" Well I understand that and am cool with that. But, who are these people and what route are they taking? How come I can't get more info into this? How can I help them? And please don't give me the damned "Just stay quite and try not to waive your gun around." Because we know this. The secrecy of it being handled "sort of" away from the group itself, leaves the rest of the group fearful and wanting to do something different because there is no glue between it any longer this way.

Perhaps we could look possibility into a committee? With representation from all areas. Regional, to Provincial to Canada wide to bring all this up? I do know that there are many groups out there that are like this, indeed called "Lobby groups." Now we don't need protests and gong shows that get nothing but bad publicity, but rather a group of people that are put together by the group as a whole. This way the entire group can have a say, and get more information quicker from whats going on.

Now I've been told that Hojo is in on doing things like this, but I do not know what the situation is because he is to busy to let us know how its going, what routes are being taking or what he's being told. And I'm not saying we need to forget what he's doing, but the thing is really, do any of you know whats happening with this "fight" for airsoft?

Perhaps, thats why we have so much trouble agreeing on what to be doing here. Perhaps thats why no one seems to be able to get their voices out ((as it seems)). And Perhaps thats why so many of these petition threads appear.

[Luckyorwhat]

I think you guys have been tricked. There is NOTHING difficult about activism.

On CGN they've gone the other way, it's grassroots. Everyone scans all the headlines, and when an anti-gun or pro-gun story comes up people write letters to that newspaper, in support or against. You see a thread with a bunch of people's letters they sent to the editors, and then they also get critiques on how to make their letter better next time.

But on ASC that's scary, letting ordinary people start letter writing campaigns without official guidance? God forbid. What's needed is an incredibly slow process, mostly secret, supposedly run by a handful of honest to God elitists, over a period of time spanning years - and that has no appreciable results of any kind to show for it.


I don't know why the guys running this forum were so adamant we couldn't discuss activism, maybe they were really just snobs, or maybe they were planning some sort of organization to make money from lobbying airsoft. It doesn't really matter, they had a policy and stuck by it. I even wrote the guy running the forum about it 2 years ago - they really, really, didn't want ordinary people taking action.


And since for years the press has had one-sided information (antis and police chiefs) flooding the media, the 'battle' is pretty much over. The legislation is being drafted, and we've never gotten our voice heard.


And it is directly the fault of those running this forum, for refusing it to be used for organizational or activist purposes. The only good thing to come from their stubbornness was that in the future they can be used as a great example for others.

[Dracheous]

Can't really blame the leaders of THIS forum as there are OTHER forums out there. As well no mod on this forum has any control as to what you may or may not do outside the forum.



I really don't like that line though, "really,really don't want 'ordinary' people taking action." Well, its ordinary people that play this sport! Everyday people who are police, fire, ambulance, post office, bakers, cooks, cleaners, construction, trades, truck drivers... etc etc. Those are the people that are here and those are the people we are trying to represent to the public. Why would we want to hide the ordinary people behind odd ball people? Is it not the odd balls that are using these things improperly? I mean last I checked it was one in five thousand are likely to use their fire-arm illegally.


At the same time, even ordinary people would need some organization and backing for them to get anything viewed properly by the people we need this to get too. So there is a tight-rope here.

For the most part, there has been far too much miss-information being given out to the public concerning fire-arms and fire-arm control. My bother just came by, and he's in the RCMP. He wasn't the biggest fan of my air soft rifles, though he's amazed I have them locked up. But, in a brief conversation about it, current "registry" doesn't do squat for him, cause a bullets still a bullet.

You have people who will always find something to go nuts with. If its not a gun, than its a knife, or a baseball bat, or a hockey stick, or a cue ball in a sock! Having failed all this, anyone could still go down to Home Depot and get Peat Moss and make pipe bombs. There is no end to what resourceful people can and will do. And the only really protection against any of this stuff is education for it. And sadly, media has put out quite a bit of miss-information. But the problem is there are lots of things happening in Canada that warrants the banning of these guns also.

[Cortexburn]

If people want to write up a letter and post it for others to critique I'm fine with that as I'm sure most others on the forums are.

It's not the job for those of us that run the forum to do FA in regards to saving airsoft. There are members who are chosing to take a role. There is a SHIT load of talk about writing letters but nobody posts what they are going to write. All we see are half baked schemes to contact the media and write a rant to anyone that will listen.

SO....don't be pointing fingers saying it's our job as it's not. If ANYONE wants to write a letter we can't stop them, and if they don't post what they are writing we can't help with editing and the like.

I agree that the letter writing on CGN is something that ( IMO ) is having some weight behind it, but you need to remember there are FAR fewer airsofters then shooters and of that number there are FAR fewer airsofters that are capable of writing something that would not be a nail in airsofts coffin.

Again....please people....if you want to write to an MP then do so, if you want to make sure it's worded in a positive and constructive way then by ALL MEANS.....POST.

[Freedom Fighter]

Originally Posted by Luckyorwhat

But on ASC that's scary, letting ordinary people start letter writing campaigns without official guidance? God forbid. What's needed is an incredibly slow process, mostly secret, supposedly run by a handful of honest to God elitists, over a period of time spanning years - and that has no appreciable results of any kind to show for it.


I don't know why the guys running this forum were so adamant we couldn't discuss activism, maybe they were really just snobs, or maybe they were planning some sort of organization to make money from lobbying airsoft. It doesn't really matter, they had a policy and stuck by it. I even wrote the guy running the forum about it 2 years ago - they really, really, didn't want ordinary people taking action.

I'm not all that clear what your beef is, or with whom. Who said you can't go out and do something? You are angry with the lack of results then by all means go out and be the voice of reason. Noone can stop you.

Someone certainly has sand in the crotch area this afternoon.

I enjoyed playing this sport, have made many friends through it, and personally hope that I can enjoy it with my son when he turns 15. Noone here is pleased with what the government is doing with regards to airsoft but making the government change it's policies is no simple task. I have not the time or knowledge to make a real difference so until my help is requested, or airsoft is banned outright by the government I'll keep enjoying my hobby.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

There seems to be some confusion about what has actually happened.. Some people seem to believe that "a ban is coming" That in some way the law as pertains to airsoft is changing.

This is not the case.. The only thing that has changed is the position with respect to enforcement of existing laws.

Activism can be effective is maintaining the status Quo Which is what the current gun lobby in Canada is striving for... no more changes.. no more restrictions.. we will live with what we have.. but no more.. Holding back the tide where it is by building a dam of resistance through lobbying and political activism.

Our position is different.. The dam has already burst... it did so in 1998 when replicas were proscribed.. and we have been running for high ground ever since.. trouble is there is not much high ground left..


Both airguns and Replicas are currently Proscribed under current laws..

Airsoft guns are both airguns ( not restricted ) and Replicas ( prohibited)

So what we are talking about is having some sort of " special status " for airsoft guns outside of the current Law.

The Brits solved this problem with "Written in" defenses for trade and possession of replicas ( or Realistic Imitations as they call them) based on a "legitimate need" clause in the law. our law has no provision for written in defenses.. The legitimate need for individuals in the UK is for historical re-enactment.. it is the same law that allows people to own swords and spears and bows in the UK all which are illegal under the law.

Our law places the "legitimate need" provision on the transfer end of things.. and requires both the transferer and the transferee to have a business Firearms License..

For example it is ok for a licensed business to sell replicas to another licensed business... a legal importer can sell replicas to a prop house for example.. or to a movie armourer.. or to a training facility.. both entities have a "legitimate need"

the issue is that individuals have no "legitimate need" for replicas in the perception of the Law in Canada.. so access to replicas is legally out of reach for individuals. Which is the intent of the law..

We are talking about changing the law to allow individuals access to replicas... this would be a reversal of the government position that has been in place since 1998 when replicas were specifically proscribed to eliminate that access.

This would be exactly the same as asking the government to reverse their position on proscribing "assault rifles" as prohibited.. why would they? because some people would like to own them? Because their hobby happens to be the collecting and shooting of Assault rifles.. and because they want to they should be allowed? Some would argue.. yes, the government has no business meddling in the affairs of law abiding citizens... but we all know that in Canada this is not the case.

"saving airsoft" by requesting legislative changes in the Firearms Act and the CCC is very much like trying to get all the water back behind the dam and rebuild it while holding back the water... Not impossible... but really not very likely to happen.

There are ways that we can continue to participate.. and grow the community .. but it is not going to be as free and easy as it has been.

[Luckyorwhat]

Originally Posted by Cortexburn

If people want to write up a letter and post it for others to critique I'm fine with that as I'm sure most others on the forums are.

It's not the job for those of us that run the forum to do FA in regards to saving airsoft. There are members who are chosing to take a role. There is a SHIT load of talk about writing letters but nobody posts what they are going to write.

You do realize that when you delete the threads it makes it pretty hard to post the letters you wrote, in that deleted thread. Ok? All I'm saying is you ought to think that through, if you remove the thread, people can't post in it.

And for the record, when people say, "You should not do anything, we're t5taking care of it." That's sort of easily interpreted as making it their job to do FA about airsoft.

What I see is that it's getting close to last call, and the people who've been talking big all evening are starting to get squirrely about paying the tab they've racked up.

Originally Posted by Freedom Fighter

I'm not all that clear what your beef is, or with whom. Who said you can't go out and do something? You are angry with the lack of results then by all means go out and be the voice of reason. Noone can stop you.

This forums admins specifically and explicitly said members could not organize here and 'do something'. And using the internet as a medium for influence really requires a main forum to allow (or God forbid advocate) people to use it for such.


All the naysayers really have me baffled. It's one thing to be ignorant, that's easily cured. But to refuse to learn, that's just crazy. Type 'ZUMBO' into a search engine. The man was an influential hunting writer who came out denouncing EBRs (evil black rifles - ie anything you want an airsoft copy of), and essentially supporting the second assault weapons ban proposed down in the USA. The same day he announced that he started to feel heat, by the end of the week he'd lost all his main sponsors. A couple weeks later he's now been fully rehabilitated and is firmly against the proposed AWB.

ALL FROM PEOPLE USING THE INTERNET, WRITING LETTERS, AND STUFF THAT MODERATORS HERE SAY, "HAS BEEN TRIED BEFORE."

[Luckyorwhat]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

There seems to be some confusion about what has actually happened.. Some people seem to believe that "a ban is coming" That in some way the law as pertains to airsoft is changing.

This is not the case.. The only thing that has changed is the position with respect to enforcement of existing laws.

My friend, in the March 2 Markham Economist and Sun there's an article "Politicians call for ban on replica firearms";
""We have to licence people to sell cigarettes," he said. "We wouldn't give a permit to people selling replica guns."

Activism can be effective is maintaining the status Quo Which is what the current gun lobby in Canada is striving for... no more changes.. no more restrictions.. we will live with what we have.. but no more.. Holding back the tide where it is by building a dam of resistance through lobbying and political activism.

Circle March 12 on your calendar, Montague is in court again. http://www.brucemontague.co.uk/ He most certainly is not trying to maintain the status quo. Almost all the firearms laws are unconstitutional, and will be repealed. Furthermore we are pushing for CCW and removal of the long-gun registry. Grey areas of 12-6's are also being bitterly, bitterly contested. We got screwed, burned very very badly, because we took the 'wait and see' attitude advocated by this forum. Vague promises and such, don't mean squat to me and many others. People who want to keep their firearms are active because they've realized they HAVE to be.3

I've said it before, playing nice and hoping to be left alone is NOT a viable long term policy for airsoft. WE ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. We don't have a problem, we are not a problem. The people who want to ban it are the problem, THEY have the problem, we're ordinary people playing a sport.



About the previous bans and such, there's an even simpler thing to do. Vote Conservative, and communicate with your MP that you want property rights recognized. Yea, right now we don't have a specified right to property (thanks Trudeau). Once you have a right to property, it becomes much harder to take things away from you.

[Lawdog]

I posted this in another thread, but it certainly seems appropriate here:

Online petitions hold no weight with politicians.

Besides, methods utilized to actually influence politicians are one of the last steps in the process of lobbying. You kind of have to start like:

1) Identifying exact nature of problem (if there is one)
2) Identifying and agreeing on the best solution and several fall back solutions
3) Drafting and preparing the message needed to be delivered to get the desired results
4) Identifying all the means of delivering the message
5) Evaluate and cost the items under 4) above
6) Budget and choose methods to be used (yup they all cost)
7) Allocate resouces (fundraising is a seperate process)
8) Get all leaders fully trained on the message and how to deliver it
9) Draft materials for leave-behinds and other efforts
10) release materials to participants
11) Carefully track, monitor and direct all lobbying efforts.

Let me tell one story out of school. I have been lobbying for OTLA for years. We do all this crap. One day I go to a meeting with a key MPP who we need to influence and he tells me he had a meeting with one of our members who was one of his constituents who told him something a little different than our message and goals. He is all over us about sending mixed messages and having to get our house in order before we can really ask the government to act. It took us months (and some serious coin) to undo the damage he had done.

The lesson to be learned is that discipline is key to lobbying.

If you want to do something RIGHT NOW, the best thing that you can do is start putting together local organizations that maintain some lists of members, real names and addresses, and skills that they can contibute when we need to roll out the message. You can even drink beer and brainstorm and keep notes of your ideas. If we have many local organizations in place with members, communications and funds put together facilitates everything. Then we simply co-op all the local organizations into the larger organization when the time is right and then you already have provincial bodies and local captains ready to work when the message is crafted and ready to deliver. Right now building the grassroots organizations is the right step, not going off half cocked.

That's why an individual who within 36 hours or so of indentifying the "crisis" skips the first ten steps and promises amazing results within a week does not impress me.

RLD