Definition of "IN"

[theshaneler]

i don't think your question got avoided really. for the most part, people have talked about what it means when you say IN, and the different kinds of backing out.

saying IN and just no showing up is pretty much a unanimous "bad" thing
saying IN and backing out weeks before to do whatever else, is acceptable. (i think for the most part we can agree)

people may have read and fully agreed to your game rules. but once something better comes along, they want to back out. noting wrong with that, this isn't a bank loan, there is no contract in any sense. It is up to the game host to offer a package that will have people wanting to come no matter what else pops up.

Originally Posted by Trev140_0

One date, 2 dates, 10 dates.... read the posting and if you dont want to go, cant go, dont know....dont post "in" in the first place.

that's a great theory IF we had perfect information.
maybe when you posted this, nothing else was scheduled, so it seemed like the best option so they said, yes i will come. What they didn't know is that another OP was being planned on one of the dates, which they would be more interested in. we can only make decisions based on the facts in front of us, and our decisions may not reflect what is truly in our best interests if we do not have all the information needed.

[Trev140_0]

Thanks I will post one more thing as I value many of the people input. The next post is a final follow up post I put up. Keep in mind this game was a capped game. I then opened it back up as it blew through 50 people and the below post says its being capped again. I think with the below information postes a SECOND time, there is not any misundertanding on my end.

Clearly.

[Trev140_0]

January 9th, 2012, 19:40 #265
Trev140_0


Ok guys,

Tomorrow at noon this game will be closed. The list of players who signed "in" will be counted as playing.

There will not be ANY additional players admitted.I closed this last time and hit 50 players. Then opened it back up as many of the core guys wanted MORE people. But times up. We need to start planning.

As a side note, there will be a "role call" performed come came day.This will be cross referenced back to this list. Any players who do not show for reasons other than outside what is general courtesy, will be reviewed next game to be let in.

Bottom line is teams are about to be formed and posted based on this list.

Also, as a reminder, this is weather dependant. So if the weather co-operates which includes temperature and wind, the first game will be a "go". A few weeks later there will be a second game. Also weather dependant.

So this may wind up being a 2 game back to back with the people on the list.

Please understand there will not be anyone let into the second game. You are very likely going to see video, posts, etc of an awesome game and I dont want to have the "hey, that looks awesome, can I come now" PM.

Tomorrow at high noon..... mark my word. Not one minute pasts.

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Last edited by Trev140_0; January 9th, 2012 at 19:49..

[Boche]

Originally Posted by Trev140_0

Thanks I will post one more thing as I value many of the people input. The next post is a final follow up post I put up. Keep in mind this game was a capped game. I then opened it back up as it blew through 50 people and the below post says its being capped again. I think with the below information postes a SECOND time, there is not any misundertanding on my end.

Clearly.

From the day I posted 'in' to the day I posted 'out', you posted nine times in the game thread, in the span of seven days. Am I to hang on every word you write? I fully admit to glazing over your original write-up, that falls on me, but I guess I didn't expect to find a two date commitment, a kidney and my firstborn in the mix.

If by your definition, I'm a flaker and unwelcome, so be it. It might have been an issue when I played 20-30 games a year, but those days are done. I've been to SOF before in the summer, it was alright, I thought a winter game would be interesting, but I'll somehow learn to carry on.

In retrospect you did clearly state the two date concept, there's no doubt about that, and I said that part is on me. Yet, that doesn't change the fact that it is unreasonable and ridiculous as I said before.

Oh well, in the end it all turned out. I freed up the weekend of the 11th to spend with my wife at a B&B for Valetines Day celebrations, and I'm heading to a WW2 Milsim with a veteran host and all around good guy, Leecas. Life is grand.

Anyway, no use going around in circles, Auf Wiedersehen

[Barf]

Just so you know, this is not aimed at you. This is just addressing the points you brought up for the edification of newer players...

Originally Posted by MaciekA

You can't expect ad-hoc game organization to happen with the pragmatic efficiency of the Japanese train system.

You've never been to Muskoka (I assume), but then Muskoka is not Ad-hoc. Generally, the larger and more complex the game, the less forgiving the hosts will be of people who back out.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

Consider the various states of interest and types of people involved in the runup to a game:

From my experience, this is how things go. This comes from years of experience (the game hosts) of having to deal with player sign ups and flakers.......

Originally Posted by MaciekA

1) 100% "in" - will come no matter what.

This is the only definition of 'IN'. For a lot of the larger games, the hosts do a lot of prep and set-up to make for a playable game. This involves them putting their own cash up front. Game fees from players is how they offset their cost. You can imagine their reaction for players who "IN", taking up a spot, and don't show. To borrow from Muskoka, if 20 players out of 100 don't show, at $50 each, that's $1000 that the hosts have to cover.

If a game host requires that you reserve a spot, it's guaranteed that if you call "IN", you better show up. If you commit yourself to a game, allot the time accordingly. Everyone understands that life gets in the way. If you have to back out, let the host know right away and why. No one has ever been posthumously banned from future games because he died the the day before an event and, to my knowledge, no future airsoft player has been banned because he made daddy miss a game by forcing mom into labour on game day.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

2) 100% "in" - will come if they can get a ride.

This is more problematic. My suggestion for these people is rather than call in, ask for a ride first. I've seen a lot of "in pending ride". It's up to the host to handle this. Most will view this as uncommitted until a firm "IN".

Originally Posted by MaciekA

3) 50/50 "in" - wishes to express their interest in the game but will know better closer to the date. This person is not evil, and not a contract-breaker. The system should allow for them to exist.

There is a system for this. It's called "not filling the game thread with crap". There's been more than one game thread where there is a retarded number of posts of people who's only post is "I can't make it" or "put me as tentative".

The best way to make this clear to new players to find a reasonably sturdy table, pull down their pants, and bend them over the table. Have them turn around to the person sodomizing them and ask "Are you 50% in or 100% in?". At some point they will realize that there is no such thing as half-way. Either commit or don't.

No one cares who's not coming or why. Games are planned around the people who actually show up. Tentative is the same as not coming from a monetary standpoint. If you're interested, decide if you're interested enough to actually attend, then commit. Unless the thread specifically says "Looking for Interest", hosts don't want to hear from you.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

4) Flaker - not intending to come but ins anyway (this is probably a small group). A community should systematically shun these folks, but with the right payment/event system, they won't even be a problem.

There is a Flake List that gets passed around the major game hosts. These people don't attend any major games regardless of their stated interest.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

9) Someone who has guns and/or batteries to rent - these people can help solidify the "in"-ness of other people. How many friends have you invited to airsoft who said "but I don't have a gun/mask/goggles/camo/etc" ?

The community honour system applies to more than just calling your hits. It's up to the player to make sure he's equipped to play. My invited friends have always attended using my guns, wearing my spare goggles, wearing my spare BDU's. They are my responsibility.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

10) Vendors who are able to provide BBs or retailer support and bring more marketing to you (and vice versa)

Already taken care of. The retailers are under the same honour system when they make their own commitments when they post their attendance.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

11) People who would love to show up but refuse to go through the rigamarole of signing up on some "forum"

This is just odd. If they have the wherewithal to actually attend, they can spend the effort to let the hosts know they're coming.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

12) 100% "in" unless bad weather. Some people run external LiPos and/or trigger computers that won't handle rain well. Some people just don't consider it fun.

See point 1) Either commit 100% or not at all. There are players who show rain or shine who don't enjoy being informed that the person who took their slot in a capped game didn't show. The last Muskoka game I attended, we got pissed on and I spent the weekend soaked to my boxers. That's milsim and that's what I came to play. Don't like it? Try paintball.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

etc.. etc.. If you don't want some of these types of people in your game, be clear and state it. That should be a theme actually: If you don't want people who can't handle a 2-date requirement, etc, then be clear "we can go on and play without you but don't sign up. No hard feelings". Etc.

It was made clear years ago and some hosts now screen their player lists.

Originally Posted by MaciekA

But of particular interest is case #4, the outright flaker. Wouldn't it be nice for your event organizer method/system/whatever to not be so brittle as to be brought down, or at least not have your day ruined by a flaker?... Yet why do people continue to design situations in which they get terrorized by these types of participants?

See my answer to #4.

Airsoft is primarily based on honour. This solves pretty much all the problems regarding money and attendance. If you cannot prove yourself dependable, you won't last very long.