Clarification on gas powered airsoft over 500 FPS

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

The "Joules" thing is the only gray area for me...gona clarify that on Monday when i make my call to the RCMP!

Is a grey area for everyone, including the RCMP and those that wrote and follow the firearms laws too.

Used to be very well known and documented that is must be 500fps and above, AS WELL AS 5.7 Joules and above to be considered a firearm under Canadian law. And what you put up shows that grey area, they say and/or

One more thing, if the RCMP say it's ok, that doesn't mean it won't get seized at the border, good chance it still will, and you'd be powerless to do anything about it. Stop arguing, stop with the "Well, I'm going to call the RCMP!!!" crap. Doesn't matter what they say, it's Customs that you have to deal with. Now if yo uwent to the US and bought one for cheap (is why yo uare going on and on about this), and you declare it when drving across the border, you might get it in country without a hassle, pay your duty and you are laughing. At least if you are that set on bringing this thing into the country, do it in person so yo uhave a better chance of pointing out that it's just a toy gun, you'll have a 1000% better chance of getting it that way than if someone else brought the box in and Customs decided to seize it. Going the cheap route and losing it just means you have to pay 1.5x as much as you'd pay to buy the same gun in Canada. Because you'd lose your cash you paid for the 0.5, and you'd have to buy one here at full price.

[mcguyver]

If you try to import one, the information that the CBSA will go by first and foremost is the information printed on the box or in the owner's manual that comes with the gun stating it's velocity. If the box has anything other than 407-499 fps, it will be seized, end of story. If it gives an energy rating as well (rare) that states anything like "1J" (as is required in Japan and many other countries) it will be seized, end of story.

If the gun does not have the 407-499 fps on the box or in the owner's manual, and does not show any velocity at all for example, it will be seized. You can not convince the CBSA of what it shoots, they will not listen to you, nor to airsoft reviews, nor to Redwolf ads for the gun.

I can tell you now that I have not seen 1 gun that has the required info printed on the box or in the owner's manual, not 1 out of hundreds.

Now, you can get cheeky and let the gun get seized, and then hope to fight it on appeal knowing that you'll win because of the actual performance of the gun. But the CBSA will send it to the RCMP Firearms Forensics Lab in Regina for testing. You have no control over the test procedures, nor to you have any way to know the actual performance of the gun. You can expect the whole process of seizure to final CITT appeal to take up to 5 years. In the end, they may miraculously find that it shoots 406 fps, oopps!! Too bad. Appeal denied. Did I forget to mention the costs involved for a $450 U.S. gun to be heard through years of appeal? Contrary to stated CBSA policy, the appeals are not entirely "free of charge". If you want to have counsel present during the CITT portion to present evidence, that costs $$$.

This is why your idea has not historically worked, why Peter Kang allowed 2 guns top be seized intentionally so that he could fight them on it, but still lost anyways. This is why, although the 407 fps threshold has and still exists for airguns, you will not have a very easy or successful time using it for airsoft.

The 407 fps thing is not law at all, rather CBSA and RCMP policy that is not open to change, unless you get Parliament to institute change. This will not come from 1 measly CITT case, or even a court case for that matter.

[Jackals]

I have talked with the prohibited Items unit in Toronto several times, each and every time we talk, he makes sure to point out importing replica airsoft/paintball guns are ILLEGAL.

You want to contact the RCMP and the CBSA, but even then, the laws are open to the inturpretation of the officer examining your parcel.

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

If you try to import one, the information that the CBSA will go by first and foremost is the information printed on the box or in the owner's manual that comes with the gun stating it's velocity. If the box has anything other than 407-499 fps, it will be seized, end of story. If it gives an energy rating as well (rare) that states anything like "1J" (as is required in Japan and many other countries) it will be seized, end of story.

If the gun does not have the 407-499 fps on the box or in the owner's manual, and does not show any velocity at all for example, it will be seized. You can not convince the CBSA of what it shoots, they will not listen to you, nor to airsoft reviews, nor to Redwolf ads for the gun.

I can tell you now that I have not seen 1 gun that has the required info printed on the box or in the owner's manual, not 1 out of hundreds.



Easy, you make deals with airsoft manufacturers do that they have a "For Canadian import" version of the gun that fits the criteria, ie FPS rating...stickers on the box and all!




Now, you can get cheeky and let the gun get seized, and then hope to fight it on appeal knowing that you'll win because of the actual performance of the gun. But the CBSA will send it to the RCMP Firearms Forensics Lab in Regina for testing. You have no control over the test procedures, nor to you have any way to know the actual performance of the gun. You can expect the whole process of seizure to final CITT appeal to take up to 5 years. In the end, they may miraculously find that it shoots 406 fps, oopps!! Too bad. Appeal denied. Did I forget to mention the costs involved for a $450 U.S. gun to be heard through years of appeal? Contrary to stated CBSA policy, the appeals are not entirely "free of charge". If you want to have counsel present during the CITT portion to present evidence, that costs $$$.

Agreed that that is a valid potential argument...haven't gotten that far yet mind you!


This is why your idea has not historically worked, why Peter Kang allowed 2 guns top be seized intentionally so that he could fight them on it, but still lost anyways. This is why, although the 407 fps threshold has and still exists for airguns, you will not have a very easy or successful time using it for airsoft.

You assuming...no offense!


The 407 fps thing is not law at all, rather CBSA and RCMP policy that is not open to change, unless you get Parliament to institute change. This will not come from 1 measly CITT case, or even a court case for that matter.

In the mean time policy is policy...they would need to change it if they ever decided the idea was a pain in the ass for them for some reason...but up till today, airguns are redly available at Canadian tire and other sporting stores nationwide. I cant see them totally banning airguns in Canada

[TokyoSeven]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

This should end this argument...period!

*bunch of stuff*

No that wont win the arguement, if you think using abunch of old cases as ammunition to win an argument is going to work your mistaken, your arguement is still full of transparent "ifs" and your single interpretation of writings.

But seriosly though, this time Im done with this, the horse is dead and beat. Im outa this argument for good.

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by Jackals

I have talked with the prohibited Items unit in Toronto several times, each and every time we talk, he makes sure to point out importing replica airsoft/paintball guns are ILLEGAL.

You want to contact the RCMP and the CBSA, but even then, the laws are open to the inturpretation of the officer examining your parcel.

This is true....but your missing the point....it may be open to interpretation of an officer...but it wont be to a judge....the line is clearly defined...hence airguns at Canadian Tire!

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by TokyoSeven

No that wont win the arguement, if you think using abunch of old cases as ammunition to win an argument is going to work your mistaken, your arguement is still full of transparent "ifs" and your single interpretation of writings.

But seriosly though, this time Im done with this, the horse is dead and beat. Im outa this argument for good.

Did you actually read the cases?
They are from 2007 and 2008!

[mcguyver]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

In the mean time policy is policy...they would need to change it if they ever decided the idea was a pain in the ass for them for some reason...but up till today, airguns are redly available at Canadian tire and other sporting stores nationwide. I cant see them totally banning airguns in Canada

They would ban airguns 1000 times beofre they'll relax policy to allow more "scary gun-looking things" into Canada, I promise you. I've had the "pleasure" of dealing with the CBSA Firearms Agent at the land entry at Portal on a couple of occasions. He (I won't mention his name) has a real hard-on for airsoft and sees it as his mission to remove them from Canada (he actually said this). When confronted with the law and CBSA policies, he actually said "I don't care. I'm king in my little world and can do whatever I want".

His reach extends from BC to Mantioba, this is why Alberta retailers avoided land entries for years and stuck to air shipments so they could enter at Calgary to a more receptive agent.

Now, if you think that the Canadian mentality is to allow more guns, you are sadly mistaken. I don't mean the menatlity of soccer-moms, but the unofficial, unposted policies of the CBSA, RCMP and the justice system. Try and fight what you don't know about, and you won't win. I've beaten the CBSA on seizures, but when I did, the slammed the door anyways on another technicality (and bad faith at that) that would have forced another appeal in Federal Court to resolve. The cost would not have been worth it, and the chance of winning would have been slim.

[TokyoSeven]

Ok looks like not done here.

Im not gona go outside find some dude, and stab him in the face with an knife. After I am arrested and attend trial when the judge asks if I wish to make a statement I will respond with "yessir, please refer to this one specific case back in january of 2008 where so and so stabbed someone in the face with a knife and he was let off with out any form of punishment, I would like you to apply that case to me as well".

[CDN_Stalker]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Killer

In the mean time policy is policy...

Policy is policy, but because this "policy" is such a wide grey area, it's up to the individual at Customs et al to interpret that "policy" and make a judgement on it based upon the way THEY see the law.

You are losing there dude, just buy a rifle from within the country and stop arguing about variables.

[Danke]

You know the "funny" part of this is you go to an international airsoft forum like maybe one based in the UK and you will find people ranting that spending $400 for a VFC rifle is a ripoff, or looking for the best MP5 for $80.

[Donster]

sorry for the thread jack, but could i order a pellet gun outside of canada?

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by mcguyver

They would ban airguns 1000 times beofre they'll relax policy to allow more "scary gun-looking things" into Canada, I promise you. I've had the "pleasure" of dealing with the CBSA Firearms Agent at the land entry at Portal on a couple of occasions. He (I won't mention his name) has a real hard-on for airsoft and sees it as his mission to remove them from Canada (he actually said this). When confronted with the law and CBSA policies, he actually said "I don't care. I'm king in my little world and can do whatever I want".

He would care if you took a tape recording to a judge....im sure the judge would have lots to say about his attitude and disregard for the law assuming you were in the rite and he was being a jerk!

His reach extends from BC to Mantioba, this is why Alberta retailers avoided land entries for years and stuck to air shipments so they could enter at Calgary to a more receptive agent.

Try and fight what you don't know about, and you won't win.

Iv been told that before an won on non airsoft related stuff in court...so that holds no water with me!

I've beaten the CBSA on seizures, but when I did, the slammed the door anyways on another technicality (and bad faith at that) that would have forced another appeal in Federal Court to resolve. The cost would not have been worth it, and the chance of winning would have been slim.

What im talking about is bigger than just one person or one importers battle...im talking about opening up the industry in a big way...Rome was not built in a day...you have to fight the battles you can with the resources you have. You might even try to get some of the manufacturers to somewhat fund your initiative...it would be in their best interest to do so...and im not saying that they would...just tossing it out there to get the debate going.

Furthermore, you would be surprised how easy it is to represent yourself in court...i have been doing it now for almost 1.5 years...at first it was one of the scariest unknown things i have ever done....but once you have done it a few times....it makes you laugh people that pay lawyers $450+ dollars per hour for a job you can do yourself for nothing more than your time and the odd court filing fee...and win at that!!!!

[Dog Face Killer]

Originally Posted by TokyoSeven

Ok looks like not done here.

Im not gona go outside find some dude, and stab him in the face with an knife. After I am arrested and attend trial when the judge asks if I wish to make a statement I will respond with "yessir, please refer to this one specific case back in january of 2008 where so and so stabbed someone in the face with a knife and he was let off with out any form of punishment, I would like you to apply that case to me as well".

No offense...and i mean this in the nicest way...but you have no idea how case law works in Canada.

[TokyoSeven]

and your blindly grasping as disintegrating straws.