What is your true definition of "Milsim"

[hollywood...]

Originally Posted by MADDOG

Airsoft "milsim" is the same as the rest of life, you get out of it what you invest in it.

Well said!

[MADDOG]

Originally Posted by hollywood...

Well said!

And I am invested in a crying 13 month old baby right now that is driving me crazy, does he not know I should be sleeping by now
Back to the regularly scheduled Milsim program

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by MADDOG

And I am invested in a crying 13 month old baby right now that is driving me crazy, does he not know I should be sleeping by now
Back to the regularly scheduled Milsim program

Mine is seven months. A better investment than all of my airsoft gear together though. He likes smiling and sleep, and yeah, I count my lucky stars; at least so far.

[Aswayze]

Some more good talk on this subject!

Danhay said: “Heck, the fact that the fat kid in the multicam cap has been singled out and become the subject of scorn and ridicule is itself an indication of a very broken attitude. Every member of this forum was once that fat kid in the multicam cap; we all had to start at the beginning.”

There is always an assumption by people who do not attend “serious” milsim events that we somehow look down upon new players or feel that we are inherently better than them. That is not the case. In fact, new players probably blend in better and are generally more accepted at serious milsim events than at normal events. The difference is that the Milsim guys are doing something very specific and the fat kid in the Multicam booney cap has to be the fat kid in the Mk6 kevlar helmet instead. A decent percentage of attendees at East Wind are literally first time airsofters. Most are coming for exactly what East Wind is putting on and are getting into airsoft just because it is the system we use some are guys who are wanting to get into airsoft and don’t have a reasonable community in their own area so decide to travel, some are coming for the opportunity to learn.

As far as the future of the sport goes, the issue with airsoft in general is not getting new people into the sport it is staving the rate at which we bleed experienced players back out. We get thousands of new players every year into our sport and just as fast, we lose thousands out the other end due to boredom, the fact that they plateau with their skill sets or just the fact that a regular shootem up game only has so many challenges. The Milsim style of play offers additional depth to the experience which helps give an outlet to players who would likely otherwise stop playing. Probably 50% of the attendees at East Wind no longer attend regular games, they have either just decided that they do not get that much out of them or like me, they are so tied up constantly doing East Wind related projects and such that they just do not have time for regular games. If you give experienced players and outlet as well then you’ll keep them around. You need these guys since the fat kid in the Multicam booney cap may be great but he’s probably not taking the time to run games, nor is he experienced enough to be a moderator on a web forum for you.

Then Danhay said: I should mention that I have noted more than a few so called 'elite' players who conduct themselves in extremely unsportsmanlike ways.

Great news for the Milsim guys: None of those dudes generally show up to serious milsim events. I coined the term “Samurai Pastry Chef” airsofters to describe what you are talking about. Those guys live to be the biggest fish in a small pond and they are not usually looking for a deeper experience because it might challenge them and (gasp!) point out a way in which they are inadequate. You just do not see that demographic at serious milsim events. Besides, since serious milsim never makes any money serious hosts do not bat an eye at kicking out players who are jerks.

Danhay also said: “However, don't complain about your sparsely attended milsim while denigrating the event which drew 300+ people that you felt did not live up to your standards.”

I don’t. My event has exactly as many attendees as I want. I am sure most of the other “serious” milsim guys are in the same boat. I am also not denigrating the event which drew 300+ people, I am instead usually helping on the admin end of those events and helping to organize the staff and provide vehicle support. I also recognize that the 300+ player event that is organized to provide the maximum fun to the “average” player is not the least bit interesting to me so I do not attend to play since I would get little out of it other than whizzing away a ton of bbs or getting pissed off by attendees not calling hits.


Danke said: “To be honest you don't want to simulate the military.”

Yep. It’s the same thing down here in the states… We always say we are trying to simulate the interesting parts not the dumb stuff. There is always a struggle with this and there is certainly a tendency for a host to chalk up their own poor performance to “that’s what the military is like” but in all reality, it’s much better if we focus on doing it well instead. A basic example: Scrambled eggs placed into an aluminum Mermite can turn green and then they promptly get cold and icky. I happen to like decent scrambled eggs and have no particular affinity for green things that are not vegetables so our cooks use stainless steel instead and we have cambro cans that keep the food hot longer. We are not milsim enough to eat crappy food just for the fun of it… Likewise, we’ll call formation usually on day 1 and day 2 mostly just to address everyone at once so we can cover the plan for the day etc but it’s not just for the fun of it, it’s just an easy way to have accountability and make sure Billy is not still in the porta-john.

Ricochet said: “Whining because something doesn't cater to you, means you are a part of a small, selfish demographic of people that are too lazy to start something yourself, or to see what the local scene is into, and finding a way to fit in.”

Oh my god yes do I totally agree with this. When I stopped doing local events to focus on East Wind I got no end to grief about this from everyone else who seemed to take it for granted that it is the job of event hosts to run games for the good of the greater collective. Nah, it is the job of an event host to put on the best damn game that they can and they will do that best when the gloves come off and they are able to produce EXACTLY the event that they want. It happens in my case that I really prefer an equipment oriented milsim event. To that end, I spend every evening and every weekend almost without exception readying gear, repairing things, planning, writing, training and getting all the pieces of the puzzle in place for exactly the event I want to run. If someone else is really into Pirates and wants to put the same amount of effort into putting together a pirate themed event that using home built sailboats on Lake Winnipeg then by God, they ought to do just that. If everyone makes exactly what they want then we’ll have the diversity to give us all a lot more neat and fun options. If we instead just listen to the people who whine endlessly and put wet blankets over every new idea then our sport will never grow past the same old same old events. Pretty much the fist litmus test for every new idea that gets bounced my way is “what are YOU willing to do to accomplish the goal”. People who come along with a bright idea for someone else to do are rarely worth listening to. Nobody needs unfunded mandates…

Congrats to both MadDog and Ricochet! You guys are really building the future, one bottle at a time.

[Abacus]

Having been to both Eastwind and the Guernsey OP that was the original post of this thread, I thought I'd join up and chime in.

I've spent waaaay too much time figuring out what milsim is, to the point that I now look upon the term as a profanity. Eastwind was my very first OP (and RUINED the rest of AS for me, thankyouverymuch Mr Swayze) I've gone to big OPs, I've gone to little OPs, I've been across the states looking for good games (and I'm looking for something cool to go to in Canada!).

What "I" have managed to boil it down to is players as participants rather than customers. Your results may vary. I was at Guernsey. I, personally had a fantastic time. And I did it without firing a shot. We decided we could be bored and playing another AS game, or we could get out there and make our own fun, which we did.

I've played at the gigantic monster OPs here in the states. They bore the hell out of me. I don't need a cast of thousands for my fun. I need 100 hand-picked, motivated, dedicated professionals. I get that at Eastwind. I get that at RECONDO. I stole the same idea when we created OP Grand Redemption. 106 participants, personally invited (including three Canadians). SUPERB levels of sportsmanship and professionalism!




On another issue, is the ice cream sandwich with the MC boonie cap really the future of the sport? He's not the future of MY sport. Milsimers aren't elitist as much as we are separate. We don't want to play funsoft, they don't want to play milsim. I'm fine with that. I think it's a greater disservice to the sport to try to make everything everything to everyone. Discrimination can be a good thing.

Sounds like some new topics for Airsoft Table Talk

[Aswayze]

Ya, I pretty much agree with all of what Abacus said...

Here's another way to look at it.

I have a normal* cat:


*Except for the part where he thinks he can hide under the corner of the rug.

Other people have fancy cats:



Do I begrudge the fancy cat crowd for their fancy cats? No. I am not into that. What they are doing is not any of my concern. Is their cat the future of cats? What about my cat? Does it matter?

Now back to airsoft. I do my style of Milsim. I do not care AT ALL what goes on at big ops and John Lu style bbfest games. I don't look down on them, I do not scorn them, I just don't care. If that was all there was to airsoft, I would be doing something else.

99% of players are not into my style if Milsim. They do not care what we are doing other than the ones who are unrepentant whiners who think that all game hosts should be required to make all games cater to the "customer demand" rather than what the game host wants but just like all the rest of the whiners in the world, nobody really cares what they think anyhow.

Who's the future of airsoft? Funsoft? Milsim? Zombie games? Paintball style tournaments?

How about none of the above.

How about ALL of the above.

Fact is that diversity of opportunity is the future of the sport. Recognize that, and the entire sport moves forward. If game hosts put their image in focus so that not every event is focused towards every player than it's easier for guys to know which event suits their needs and wants the best.

I am not going to go to a tournament style game played on a paintball Xball field. I am 100% certain that none of those guys are going to accidentally end up at East Wind expecting to play tournament paintball style gaming because in both cases, we are very clear about what we are doing. The friction is not generally at either end of the spectrum, it usually lays somewhere in the middle.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

This has been the best discussion on this topic ever had on ASC.. full stop.

and I thank everyone who has contributed, This should be stickied.. so as to avoid the inevitable rehash that is certain to occur if this thread gets submerged.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

This has been the best discussion on this topic ever had on ASC.. full stop.

and I thank everyone who has contributed, This should be stickied.. so as to avoid the inevitable rehash that is certain to occur if this thread gets submerged.

^
Here Here!


Asawayze, you have some very straight forward points, I like that. However, Canada has some reverse issues from the US. There are more people in New York City, than our entire country combined, yet we have a larger country by land mass. And although we have some great centers for airsoft, not everyone is in or near one, and out potential player base is quite a bit smaller, no matter how high it may be per capita. In my case, I got my start in a smaller town of 15,000 or less population. We had at one time, three airsoft teams, which is pretty good considering, and all three teams were/are modern military style. We focused on milsim, and organized sport style of play with tactics and higher end gear. We for the most part offered up the opportunity for almost anyone to come and try out if they were interested, but many wanted something different. We had players who wanted to play strictly a speedball style without all the heavy gear, others were into WWII style, etc, but we didn't cater directly to them. Essentially, if you wanted to play on or with our team, on out field, you did it our way; which I believe is reasonable. We would even give, lend, rent, or help guys buy gear they needed to play, and as long as you had a proper airsoft gun, BDUs, and safety gear, you could play on our field. Here's the issue; some players would bitch that we didn't play any days their way, or allow their style on our field. Others tried to make is change, and on, and on, and on. There was no outlet within driving distance for many of these players that had specialty tastes, but we were building a team, and not providing a weekend warrior place to game for all. I don't feel bad about that, but I didn't like being bitched at, or being called an elitist for doing our own thing, with our own time and money, on our own property. Even going to certain larger events it mostly catered to one style of play for game dynamics, and if someone threw a specialty game, depending on the type, they'd have no little to no attendees. So most players are forced to attend the milsim, or modern military style if events, because that's all they had available. I was at one event with maybe 100 or more combatants, and one guy, "one", showed up with a giant rubber broadsword. So yeah, many people looked at him oddly, and he was told by admins that he can't run his sword. Now I'm sorry that he has no one his speed, but don't come to our event, and then act surprised when people look at you funny. As I understand it in many States, there are more people available for the oddball or specialty stuff due to population. Also, not three, four, ten hour drives to find a game that suits you.

[Brian McIlmoyle]

Certainly, the number of players in the community will dictate the size of games.

There have been some good sized games that went off well around here, upwards of 150 to 200 players.

When you choose to specialize then you have to realize that you cut out the majority of players, and you have to adjust your expectations with respect to attendance.

But if you stick to your plans and goals, the right players will come out and the ones you don't want will stay away.

In Ontario in particular there are so many fields and games going on that there is usually every weekend a game catering to each particular proclivity.

Sometimes games overlap.. and nibble at the player base reducing attendance at both games, but overall Game hosts are pretty careful not to double book out of courtesy for one another. It's all working pretty well.

[c3sk]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

This has been the best discussion on this topic ever had on ASC.. full stop.

and I thank everyone who has contributed, This should be stickied.. so as to avoid the inevitable rehash that is certain to occur if this thread gets submerged.

"Stuck'd".


I agree, the contributions to this thread are plenty - mods are keeping the trolls at bay. Carry on gents, this is a great read!

[Brian McIlmoyle]

I posted some notes about my game design process some months ago.. here is a link.. for your interest.

http://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=152545

[Danke]

I think it would also be worth debunking some of the myths of "what isn't" milsim.

Going all queer eye and saying fat people or boonie hats are not allowed is probably a bit miss-guided.

Same for re-supply or other administrative details. Guys in the military go back to the vehicle for more ammo all the time.

If you want a limited ammo game then write it up so there's a first of all a good reason behind that and make sure the game scenario will lead players to that outcome. Reasonable uniform rules are fine; if you have one team on deck as Navy SEALs doing a greenside op then hoodies and white runners won't fly. Same goes if you have insurgents; having them swathed head to toe in Multicam "because it's all I've got" isn't acceptable. Sending someone off for wearing Flyee instead of Paraclete though is once again a bit too queer eye.

When one team bends or brakes the game rules or "rules of engagement" that's not milsim either. As soon as that happens it's one big skirmish.

When the game admin decides to intervene and tweak the rules on the fly because the game has tilted the wrong way they better have a plan and a reasonable way to do so. Otherwise it's just bullshit.

It is one thing to be in the military and to get paid to enjoy belt fed cock.

It is not desirable to go out and pay your own money and get belt fed cock in exchange.

[Ricochet]

Originally Posted by Brian McIlmoyle

Certainly, the number of players in the community will dictate the size of games.

There have been some good sized games that went off well around here, upwards of 150 to 200 players.

When you choose to specialize then you have to realize that you cut out the majority of players, and you have to adjust your expectations with respect to attendance.

But if you stick to your plans and goals, the right players will come out and the ones you don't want will stay away.

In Ontario in particular there are so many fields and games going on that there is usually every weekend a game catering to each particular proclivity.

Sometimes games overlap.. and nibble at the player base reducing attendance at both games, but overall Game hosts are pretty careful not to double book out of courtesy for one another. It's all working pretty well.

Definitely. When you expand into a larger area, such as Toronto or Calgary, then finding say a group or game based on WWII or Vietnam shouldn't be a problem. Those are sort of mid interest, I mean more or less the styles that are very low in population, and therefore must show up to other events. Also, there is nothing wrong with holding a large, all welcome, style of event. They can be fun if they are handled right. Many events though are becoming invite only, or even having gear restrictions such as say multicam versus woodland. It's funny how people get all up in arms about them, I think many stylized games will go more that way in the future, especially as player bases rise.

I have attended a number of Battlefield games hosted by JOC in Calgary, and enjoyed them all. One of the best though was only about 60-70 players instead of the usual 100-150. Having people with good attitudes is everything really, not always how many you have.

When an endurance game is held, such as a 24 hour, other issues arise. If half the team leaves the play area to go sleep in their cars, it severely unbalances the game, same as when a chunk of players leave early. A lot of work goes into these events, and changing everything on the fly to compensate is a pain. Many hardcore game organizers have resorted to either inviting teams/players that they know will tough it out, and help the game keep rolling, and others say straight out not to bother attending unless your prepared for a long game. This also gets people upset, but not understandably. Why should they want you there if your just coming to do things your way, and not to be a part of the big picture? Many game organizers are players. It's not about the money, they want to hold a specific type of event, and throw their blood, sweat, and tears, into it, but can only pull it of if everyone chips in and comes prepared. But then they get called elitist.

In my personal opinion, if say Brian wishes to hold a WWII style event, for aficionados, or anyone who is interested in checking one out, and you show up dressed like Master Chief or Something completely non period, your a jerk.

Time and effort should be rewarded with teamwork, understanding, and fun, not with some goof showing up and doing things his way, leaving early, and then calling you names because you won't invite his ass back.

[Danke]

Abolutely. Period gear/weapons for a WW II game is not negotiable.

Could you get away with arid CADPAT instead of AOR1 at a modern game? Probably without a second glance.

Can you rock out a Multicam plate carrier and M4 with a box mag amongst a group equipped with Grease Guns and M-1s? Nope, not ever.

[Ricochet]

Yeah, modern is usually anything that's still in circulation in the west. Pretty much woodland and on. If you're talking about mixing similar digitized patterns, that's pretty common due to gear availability. If you were doing a team thing based on the Seals (AOR1), or the Marines (marpat desert), then you'd likely not get away with aridpat, depending on your groups strict or easy going nature.

Every host has to be responsible for their decisions as well. If you hosted a game that was strictly AOR1 versus AOR2, you'd likely have a sparse showing. Slightly more common nowadays is approved camo lists. Things like Multicam, AOR2, marpat desert, A-Tacs AU, multiterrain, etc, versus M81 woodland, marpat, DPM, etc. But then you have guys wearing UCP, or black complaining. Realistically it's all what you want for game dynamics. I've considered buying a base set of camo just to attend a specific game, especially if the game is outstanding. So far though, multicam is universally accepted.

What really frustrates me is how gear and guns keep getting exponentially cheaper, and yet people still bitch about the price. I guess that'll never change. Sigh*