Celcius CTW: Systema PTW clone

[Lakonian]

If they are good, I'll look into this...

[Jer-Bear]

Been following but didn't want to wade in on it for a while.

I'd have to say Bob's not wrong in that sense. I ran a small archery dealership with some friends a while back and even at dealership prices the manufacturers already take a pretty hefty cut - usually 50% of what dealer price is - which makes manufacturing and raw materials cost about half of what a dealer would pay for. Then from there the dealership will mark up to the MSRP where they take another cut - this is one reason why Walmart can sell things for cheaper, not necessarily because its made in china. Just because they make money via volume and can go lower than MSRP.

So its entirely possible that SystemA's manufacturing cost is somewhere in the range of 500USD or lower. But if a Celsius has a selling price of US$500 it would mean the manufacturing+raw materials would be 200 or less - Toss in the factor of importing into Canada - 750 might be a more realistic amount.

However having said that, I'd have to stick with McGuyver's POV. Until it actually is produced in quantities and not just a prototype or worse, vapourware, we shouldn't get too excited about it. Even then, it could take some time for Celsius to iron out the kinks before its completely reliable.

Not to diss Celsius, but there are many factors in manufacturing to consider - even making knock offs aren't as easy as it sounds coz if the casting molds are reverse engineered, they are only made to the specs of the final product and not the specs of original casting molds that are on the CAD files. It will take time for Celsius to get it right. But like I said, we shouldn't get too excited before that. Too much hype can be counterproductive.

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by Bob the Angry Potato

Let's just say that there's a reason the Celcius can sell for under $500...

If all was right with the world, the PTW's price should reflect that too.

Well consider this:

Lower quality material.
Lower Quality Control.
Lower Production Cost.
Little or no R&D. Copying is NOT inventing.

If you think you will still have a PTW at $500 then no sorry. Will it be good for $500? Maybe. Will it be as good as a PTW for $500? No.

But here's the question for everyone: Will it get the job done better than a AEG? I don't know, i hope so, it can open up the market to more people. But hey who will go to the hassle of important china made PTW's? Depends if the market is big enough.

[FOX_111]

What's so special about PTW anyway. They just run a different mechanism and add some cheap electronic. Mass produced chips cost penny. Labour over there is so cheap, the shipping charge is probably more than twice the price of the production.

So, I'm not impressed by PTWs... manufacturing wise. They are amazing toys, way better than regular AEG, but certainely not special in a sens that warrent a price tag of 2000$ juste because they are better.

So, if I'm right and Celcius can do the same as Systema, then yeah, a PTW clone for 500$ is realistic and fair.

[Ronan]

Originally Posted by FOX_111

What's so special about PTW anyway. They just run a different mechanism and add some cheap electronic. Mass produced chips cost penny. Labour over there is so cheap, the shipping charge is probably more than twice the price of the production.

So, I'm not impressed by PTWs... manufacturing wise. They are amazing toys, way better than regular AEG, but certainely not special in a sens that warrent a price tag of 2000$ juste because they are better.

So, if I'm right and Celcius can do the same as Systema, then yeah, a PTW clone for 500$ is realistic and fair.

QC, R&D, oh and it uses better quality material compare to regular AEG's.

True their Metal body aren't as nice as the Prime one's, but they are still better than regular AEG's metal body.

Chips are cheaps yes, but chips alone, well you don't do much with them. You need to create the programs for it + you need to assemble them on boards. Why do you think your $1-$10 CPU chip cost $200-$600 once its done?

[mcguyver]

Systema had to iron bugs with their guns for 4+ years now. They've finally gotten them to the point where they are serious, game-able guns after 3 years. And they had lots of QC and customer complaints issue, I promise you.

Celcius clone PTW can and will suffer from problems, guaranteed, for the first year, or maybe more. They are obviously not in the market to made a better gun, or do R&D, or likely even care about their gun after it leaves the factory. Although we don't really have it here for obvious reasons, there are dealer networks for Systema all over the world, offering warranty and repair services. There will be none of this with Celcius.

So, will the Celcius be as good as a Systema? No. Only a fool would believe that. No other Chinese clones have proven to be as good as their "master", why should a clone of the most technologically advanced and expensive retailed airsoft gun in the world (special edition and limited-run stuff excluded) be anything other than a clone in need of work before it ever hits the field?

And the Celcius will be selling for only slightly less than the proven Systema when they land. Some guys on the "inside" say they "know" the pricing, but the proof is in the pudding. We'll see if and when it's ever made, and if and when it ever gets on Canadian soil.

[FOX_111]

Originally Posted by Ronan

QC, R&D, oh and it uses better quality material compare to regular AEG's.

True their Metal body aren't as nice as the Prime one's, but they are still better than regular AEG's metal body.

Chips are cheaps yes, but chips alone, well you don't do much with them. You need to create the programs for it + you need to assemble them on boards. Why do you think your $1-$10 CPU chip cost $200-$600 once its done?

Those things are mass produced. The initial cost is there, but once it's rolling out the production line, it still cost penny per "copy".

As for better material... that's not worth the 1000$ overcharge.

I compare this to the Ocley glasses. They cost something around 30cents to produce, and they sell them for 150$ and up. The desing crew is over paid!

[Yuxi]

Originally Posted by Ronan

Well consider this:

Lower quality material.
Lower Quality Control.
Lower Production Cost.
Little or no R&D. Copying is NOT inventing.

If you think you will still have a PTW at $500 then no sorry. Will it be good for $500? Maybe. Will it be as good as a PTW for $500? No.

But here's the question for everyone: Will it get the job done better than a AEG? I don't know, i hope so, it can open up the market to more people. But hey who will go to the hassle of important china made PTW's? Depends if the market is big enough.

I remember the same arguments about Chinese made AEGs, which have continued to improve while at the same time retaining very very very low prices, though the prices is not reflected in Canada due to the particular nature of our importing system.

[airborne1]

If they come into Canada I'm up for buying one.

[Bob the Angry Potato]

Originally Posted by Ronan

Well consider this:

Lower quality material.
Lower Quality Control.
Lower Production Cost.
Little or no R&D. Copying is NOT inventing.

If you think you will still have a PTW at $500 then no sorry. Will it be good for $500? Maybe. Will it be as good as a PTW for $500? No.

But here's the question for everyone: Will it get the job done better than a AEG? I don't know, i hope so, it can open up the market to more people. But hey who will go to the hassle of important china made PTW's? Depends if the market is big enough.

Wait 'til you see a LARGE quantity-order price of REAL Systema PTWs. They go for even less then the Celcius' price of $500-... no, seriously.
You were saying? That, at the very least, PROVES that the production cost of a PTW is under $500.

Also, I stand to the fact that Hong Kong produces good guns, while the rest of China doesn't. Name a crappy clone that comes out of Hong Kong, then we'll see.

[jesster202]

my god wait till its here and review befour you trash talk. my guess it will be great and seing its systema compatible if somthignb breaks replace it with systema.

[Bob the Angry Potato]

Let's just hope a supplier has decent access to them, and doesn't decide to gouge prices. One can hope.

We'll see at my review- no one's saying they'll be as good or better then the PTW, but save your judgements for the review. There's enough local PTWs to compare them too, and I plan to be doing a longevity study- if the guys I know in Hong Kong are right, they're truly putting a lot of effort into this gun and most of the pushbacks were working out the tiny problems in the woodwork.

[Jer-Bear]

Originally Posted by Bob the Angry Potato

Wait 'til you see a LARGE quantity-order price of REAL Systema PTWs. They go for even less then the Celcius' price of $500-... at the very least, PROVES that the production cost of a PTW is under $500.

I totally believe you on that Bob - the price point of PTWs do suggest they are between 450-600 in manufacturing cost and raw materials at least. But the MSRP mark up is inevitable and then there's the Canadian mark up. I've said in my previous post that 750 (to 850) final canadian pricing for a Celsius is quite realistic and not too shabby. If manufacturing is 500 bucks, you can't realistically expect street price or MSRP to be 550. To retail at 500 or 550, Celsius would have to get their per unit cost to below 250 to start. Even if Celsius can get it down to 250 - simply for novelty's sake they might not start out with a 500 dollar MSRP anyway. I mean seriously, a respectable businessman would milk the situation - I know I would.

And I think the PTW crowd's point is if final difference isn't going to be that much then its not worth the wait anyway and just plonk down the extra to get a PTW now. Who knows how long the development time will be, even though prototypes will be out in the next couple months - and it might be a while since Celsius looks serious about making their product work. Like Mcguyver said, if you're committed to putting in good money for something and can afford it - here we're talking AEGs, but it could be ferrarris - then you won't really be asking if you can save 50 bucks here and shave 50 bucks off there. I'm not looking at PTWs for an AEG - pretty sure I'm not paying as much as a real AR just to shoot BBs (not a diss here PTW users, just a personal opinion) But I'm a pretty firm believer in paying good money for a peace of mind and I believe PTW users think the same way.

If the final product works just as well and the price point is fair then I think it will interest many people, me included - heck, maybe even convert a few PTW users, who knows.

[Bob the Angry Potato]

750-850 seems about right in Canada, providing retailers don't get too greedy. Hong Kong price is estimated to be in the $500 range, not sure on manufacturing costs at all.

We'll see how it works in the end, and what happens.

[jupiterl]

Seriously, is the CTW is made in Hong Kong (NOT IN CHINA), I don't think it is going to be cheap AND will be pretty good quality. I think most of the parts will be manufacture by supplier of G&P and CA. I don't think we have any doubt on G&P product so far.