Echo1 banned from ShotShow

[SuperHog]

Originally Posted by Dimitri

Before this thread, being relatively new to airsoft (even though I wanted one for many years), I did not know that Cybergun rebrands other brands such as ICS, nor did I know that Cybergun secures the rights to their replicas when they put the trades on them. So I'd say, more then likely if I had a reason to, I'd buy a Cybergun.

Its a business, if your as stupid as Echo1 was to go to a show knowing that the people your in court with will be there too. Echo1 either wanted to see what Cybergun would say/do and therefor should have expected what happened, or they were too stupid to realize that if your infringing on someone else's products, perhaps its best not to show them off in plain sight in front of them.

If anything, I'll be avoiding Echo1 products from now on.

Dimitri

Dimitri,

When you buy Cybergun, practice what you just preached, "make sure you do it right the first time", and buy all non-clone internal and external parts for it. Don't forget to buy only RS sights for it.

[Dimitri]

Tokyo Marui does not seem to care who copies their Gearbox design, and instead has only targeted people who attempt to pass off their airsoft guns as non-clones of TM.

Additionally, even if TM had a patent on the Version 2 gearbox (for one example), due to the initial selling of the Ver2 rifles starting in 1992, its already expired.

Once patents expire, or when someone is not willing to legally protect their intellectual property, such as what TM has over all done, your right to "your" property is lost legally. Cybergun is just protecting their property that they licensed from firearm manufacturers such as FN to be able to market them legally.

They are doing what they must do to legally to protect themselves, but I guess this is being mean capitalistic pigs don't you think so?

Dimitri

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

After reading this article on Popularairsoft, I now have no sympathy and support for Cybergun in the way they handled the matter. Yes, they have license rights but to pick a major show that Jag is displaying all their 2012 offerings including echo1, and shutting down their whole booth for 4 echo1 guns (JP-29, JP-50, JP-44 and JP-45) and 1 VFC MK16 that they are going after for license fees, is bullying!

http://popularairsoft.com/news/echo1...odels-recalled

They could have gone in and removed only those 5 guns. The rest of the booth was fine and contained other gun manufacturers distributed by Jag.

You have no idea what 'bullying' or 'being dicks' consists of in the wild IP market that is China. There are many security and investigation firms in that AO that offer extra-legal measures to fill a capability gap that legal measures are not equipped to deal with. China does not enforce IP unless there is guanxi involved.
Had cybergun wanted to deal with the situation 'like dicks' they could have easily had JAG stores, manufacturers, whatever, burned to the ground.

[Styrak]

Originally Posted by SuperHog

Cybergun are dicks!

They're dicks for protecting their copyrights?

Yeah, sure are dicks...

[wildcard]

Originally Posted by Dimitri

Tokyo Marui does not seem to care who copies their Gearbox design, and instead has only targeted people who attempt to pass off their airsoft guns as non-clones of TM.

Additionally, even if TM had a patent on the Version 2 gearbox (for one example), due to the initial selling of the Ver2 rifles starting in 1992, its already expired.

Once patents expire, or when someone is not willing to legally protect their intellectual property, such as what TM has over all done, your right to "your" property is lost legally. Cybergun is just protecting their property that they licensed from firearm manufacturers such as FN to be able to market them legally.

They are doing what they must do to legally to protect themselves, but I guess this is being mean capitalistic pigs don't you think so?

Dimitri

aah to the contrary my friend Marui did went after company like pro gear, CA and G&P but since their patent rights are japan domestic market only they are S.O.L

[MadMax]

I think it is difficult for most to appreciate the issue because they do not understand the circumstances that preceded the exercise of this restraining order. The events which unfolded at ShotShow did not come without forewarning. I wish I could clarify what has happened, but as it happens I do unrelated business with parties on both sides of the issue. It would be unpolitic for me to throw in my hearsay. All I can say is that this years ShotShow had a lot more to offer than a restraining order issued to one airsoft distributor. You guys can tussle over this issue forever, but without really knowing what happened before, during, and after, the closure of JAG/Echo1's exhibit all you've got is a dick measuring contest without a ruler so you have to lay all your dicks side by side which is kind of can't get anywhere that isn't ghey.

ShotShow is about guns. Head on over to my ShotShow Media Day at the Range thread if you want to talk about guns again.

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthr...42#post1596442

/threadjack

Originally Posted by SuperHog

What you are saying is, its OK buy illegal firearms because you are just consumers and not profitting from it??

Um, no. I said that we're all guilty, but not in a legal sense. I don't think I ever said it was ok...I said the consumer doesn't profit from the forgery.

[SuperHog]

Originally Posted by MadMorbius

Um, no. I said that we're all guilty, but not in a legal sense. I don't think I ever said it was ok...I said the consumer doesn't profit from the forgery.

But Styrak profits from selling Element as a ASC retailer, correct?

[Jcotter]

in another 3-5 years I can see things getting worse... Back ally airsoft deals with shady characters in trench coats.. "Hey man, wanna buy a rail? How about some patches? First ones free."

ASC goes underground and joins the Resistance. What a dark future it will be :P

[Dimitri]

Originally Posted by Jcotter

Back ally airsoft deals with shady characters in trench coats.. "Hey man, wanna buy a rail?"

Except technically your wrong since the start of your ranting, and this is another problem with the way your thinking.

I may not know jack-sh*t about airsoft, and I'll be the first to admit it, but since we are talking about the "clones" of real steel products lets look at the history for a moment.

Since airsofters generally think the M1913 Picatinny Rail system was a creation of Knights (its not) lets look at the real history of it for a moment ...

It was ARMS who created it, back in the early 1990's, by modifying the Weaver Rails, and they created the original "rail foregrips", the Flattop AR, and a host of other things. Except they lost the rights of exclusive manufacture of them long ago, and guys like KAC use ARMS's rail systems as a basis for their own.

Why did they lose their protection? Cause the US DoD decided to buy out ARMS rights to them so they can standardize it and have any manufacturer produce the rails on products that they source from.

As for such things in airsoft that I've noticed, such as people trying to make their M16 rifle into say a USMC SPR or SAM-R rifle and they hunt for all the bits and pieces cloned from KAC's product line, while yes KAC makes ARMS #22 style rings, but the SPR/SAM-R as issued comes with ARMS rings NOT KAC's clone for their rifles. But if its not all KAC (or a clone of KAC) when building up a M4/M16 platform its a "inaccurate" copy in the airsoft world based on the threads I've been reading here and on ASR.

Research, research, research, I know its hard to do. But perhaps it would be best if you did that before you said something next time?

Dimitri

[R.I.T.Z]

Originally Posted by Dimitri

Except technically your wrong since the start of your ranting, and this is another problem with the way your thinking.

I may not know jack-sh*t about airsoft, and I'll be the first to admit it, but since we are talking about the "clones" of real steel products lets look at the history for a moment.

Since airsofters generally think the M1913 Picatinny Rail system was a creation of Knights (its not) lets look at the real history of it for a moment ...

It was ARMS who created it, back in the early 1990's, by modifying the Weaver Rails, and they created the original "rail foregrips", the Flattop AR, and a host of other things. Except they lost the rights of exclusive manufacture of them long ago, and guys like KAC use ARMS's rail systems as a basis for their own.

Why did they lose their protection? Cause the US DoD decided to buy out ARMS rights to them so they can standardize it and have any manufacturer produce the rails on products that they source from.

As for such things in airsoft that I've noticed, such as people trying to make their M16 rifle into say a USMC SPR or SAM-R rifle and they hunt for all the bits and pieces cloned from KAC's product line, while yes KAC makes ARMS #22 style rings, but the SPR/SAM-R as issued comes with ARMS rings NOT KAC's clone for their rifles. But if its not all KAC (or a clone of KAC) when building up a M4/M16 platform its a "inaccurate" copy in the airsoft world based on the threads I've been reading here and on ASR.

Research, research, research, I know its hard to do. But perhaps it would be best if you did that before you said something next time?

Dimitri

i think he was being sarcastic

[Dimitri]

Originally Posted by R.I.T.Z

i think he was being sarcastic

Considering his last few posts on this thread have been about the sky falling now that C-11 is going to get passed and he won't be able to buy airsoft items as they are counterfeit to the real products. I don't know how serious or not he really is anymore.

But still figured I'd throw it out there, that things are generally deeper then they appear to most people. Especially about gun related technologies.

Dimitri

[Jcotter]

Dimitri, there's no need to be an ass, I was being sarcastic in my last post. As for doing research before posting, that's exactly what I did. I saw a blog that lead me to believe changes to bill C-11 could possibly effect our community and, I asked questions about it... ( it's not like it was a wack job youtube video about aliens I saw, it was a blog by a Dr. and the Canada Research Chair of Internet and E-commerce Law at the University of Ottawa)

If you actually look back at what I had posted earlier I said things like"could this", "It could be argued" and, "correct me if I'm wrong."

I questioned what I read online and wanted your opinions. What more do you want?

Sorry for all the doom and gloom but, should I only be asking questions of a cheery nature? What's wrong with looking at an issue worst case scenario?

Let me put it this way:

The largest Airsoft distributor in the US was removed from the largest Airsoft RS convention in the US because of an issue with trades and licensing. ( Do we even know for sure if all of the products in question were on display, or was it simply due to the lawsuit?)

If some enabler clause was added to any bill that gets passed, could forums like ASC be in trouble? It could be argued they enable the sale of counterfit goods, could it not?

Now don't make this political. Argue how forums do not enable the sale, or how they may be exempt to enabler provision amendments. Hell, even argue the likelihood of them going after the revenue lost to forums.

Is it not logical to think that what happened at shot show and, with all of the attention the internet, piracy, and IP infringement is getting right now, we are not immune?

[Gato]

It would seem that in this thread, Airsoft is just as srs business as the internet