Warning to others not to make my mistake with an M14 Gear Box

[Jackarutu]

There are so many different Airsoft replicas available in the world I suppose no one individual can be expected to know all there is about all of them. I would say about 96% of my work is with version 2 gearboxes. So it came as no surprise to me that despite having long ago studied the two different forms of M14s AEGs I had never been inside an M14 gear box until this week.

I had done some minor electrical work and some furniture upgrades and whatnot but none of that prepared me for what I ran into in the gearbox.

From what I know about AEG M14s we have the G&G gearbox and the Echo1 gearbox. I believe the Echo1 Is also relative the same as that used in the Cyma and the Star and I recall that some other brand also uses the G&G type but I don’t recall which one at this moment.

In my work I try to use as many Modify brand parts as I can because experience has taught me they work well in the replicas I service. However, that said in the United States the Modify Master Distributor only carries those Modify parts that fit the line of replicas they sell which is Echo1, VFC and a few other brands. Knowing this I made an assumption that the Modify Cylinder kit they carry for the M14 is the one that will fit in an ECHO1 M14. I knew before hand that a G&G M14 needs totally different cylinder head, air nozzle that are very different from the ECHO1 M14.

Before I started this project I dissembled the gear box of this M14 and said to myself: “ yes this is an ECHO1” so I ordered a Kit and some bearings and few other items and told myself I was going to make this M14 have a better shooting distance than a stock one by using a Modify S120 spring.

So the parts came in and I set about to do the work only to find out that the Modify M14 cylinder is too long and too big in diameter to fit in this gearbox.

I did some back checking and came to understand that the M14 I’m working on is not actually an ECHO1 but perhaps a Star or a Cyma. I’m not sure which since it is not marked anywhere that I can find.

At this point I still believe that this Modify Cylinder kit will fit an actual Echo1 gearbox but I can’t actually swear to that because I have no way to check it out.

So this leaves the question for me is Cyma and Echo1 100% the same and the Star while the same on the outside is different on the inside? And if it’s the Star that is the weird one is there such a thing as aftermarket parts for a Star?

Here’s hoping this post will help someone else before they start their M14 project and also hoping some of my peers will report back that have experience in these matters on how to sort out these M14s.

Cheers

[pusangani]

And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain


love that sig man!

[Kos-Mos]

I don't have an M14 yet but since I plan on getting one really soon I did some research.

I know that G&G and CA uses a different system than others.

I also know that TM and CYMA are 100% compatible. Most Echo1 AEGs are built on a TM base, so I would guess that you assumed Modify parts where built on Echo1 because of that. They are built on TM standard actually.

The Echo1 M14 is not built on a TM. They did a "custom" mechbox to save some money and reuse components.

Gears are regular V2/3 gears.
Piston is regular V2/3/6.
Piston head is regular V2.
Cylinder is regular AEG (V2/3/6).
Spring guide apparently is either V7 or V3 (I got mixed result in my quest for information).

Barrel is a custom one. Outer diameter is smaller and the cuts are not any standard.
Hop-up and rubber is custom, it is similar to a VSR-10/TM pistol rubber, but longer.
Nozzle is also custom. I haven't found any sign that anything else than the stock one will fit.

Finally, parts that are labeled for Kart, A&K, AGM and Echo1 are all supposed to be compatible.

Cyma uses TM parts.

G&G and CA use their own part too.

G&P makes a reinforced mechbox for the TM standard.

As for magazines, Star, TM, Echo1, A&K, Cyma all use the same one.
Apparently Star SCAR magazines work also, but I would stick to M14 labeled ones.

G&P and CA use special ones (they have a cut at the back and only work with their M14s)

[Jackarutu]

Kos-Mos,

Thank you for the info.

So according to your info if I understand it correctly
TM
Cyma
ECHO1
Kart
A&K
AGM
All use the same gear box and everything in the gearbox.

Thus, Modify’s M14 cylinder Kit is made to fit the TM M14 and will fit all those listed above?

If that is true then any idea what gearbox I have? Because the Modify Cylinder is too long and too big in diameter to fit in the gearbox I have. And the Gearbox I have is a TM look alike. The Gearbox I have is not a G&G/CA type. I also have a G&G M14 gear box in my shop so I have it for comparison and have not made that mistake.

[Kos-Mos]

Originally Posted by Jackarutu

Kos-Mos,

Thank you for the info.

So according to your info if I understand it correctly
TM
Cyma
ECHO1
Kart
A&K
AGM
All use the same gear box and everything in the gearbox.

Thus, Modify’s M14 cylinder Kit is made to fit the TM M14 and will fit all those listed above?

If that is true then any idea what gearbox I have? Because the Modify Cylinder is too long and too big in diameter to fit in the gearbox I have. And the Gearbox I have is a TM look alike. The Gearbox I have is not a G&G/CA type. I also have a G&G M14 gear box in my shop so I have it for comparison and have not made that mistake.

No, re-read, you got it wrong.

That Modify FTK will work with a TM or CYMA M14 only.

You will need to mix and match different parts to upgrade your mechbox, according to the list I posted.

[Jackarutu]

Thanks again Kos-Mos,

I re-read and now understand.

The cylinder set I have is actually a GB-1-06 and not the FTK one you mention. On the Modify Url it is listed as “Cylinder Set for M14” with no other explanation. As I mentioned in my first post our US Distributor of Modify products had related to me quite some time ago that they would only carry Modify products that support Airsoft replicas they sell (which is for the most part ECHO1). However, I’ve come to believe that is only a general philosophy they have and is not totally followed all the time. With this in mind I was quite sure the Modify kit they distribute would work with any gearbox that looked on the outside like it was an ECHO1 type. So here we are with a lovely learning experience.

Perhaps it would be a novel idea for us here on ASC to establish a system to make quick and easy reference to these various M14 gear box systems.

Type 1 M14 Gear box fits: TM, Cyma Airsoft replicas.
Type 2 M14 gear box fits: G&G, CA Airsoft replicas.
Type 3 M14 gear box fits ECHO1, Kart, A&K, AGM, Star.

If anyone comes along and sees where other brands needs to be added please post that info.

One last word on the M14 type 3 gear boxes as referenced above is that while as Kos-Mos pointed out the cylinder used is the same as those used in a version 2 gear box the cylinder head, air nozzle, tappet plate and tappet plate spring look to be the same as those used in the type 1 gear box (but at this time I can't swear they are totally compatible). But I can vouch that they are very different from those used in a type 2 gear box. And I was incorrect on the diameter being different. Only the lenght of the cylinder is different.

Modify GB-10-06 M14 cylinder length: 73.68 mm
Modify GB-01-06 M14 air nozzle lenght: 21.20 mm
JG clone version 2 Cylinder length: 72.00 mm
Type 3 M14 cylinder lenght: 72.00 mm
G&G air nozzle length: 24.76 mm
ECHO1 air nozzle length 22.26 mm

If anyone else can add any helpful info here please jump in.

[Kos-Mos]

As soon as I get my CYMA M14 I will rip it appart.
Will make sure to post details here.

[Eldin]

Originally Posted by Kos-Mos

[snip]
Hop-up and rubber is custom, it is similar to a VSR-10/TM pistol rubber, but longer.
[/snip]

Actually, on my KART m14, which has seen pretty much every part replaced, it uses a regular AEG rubber and bucking, but you just need to trim the end of the rubber a bit and it'll fit.

And there's one problem I have, I get extraordinarily low fps (300ish) when it should be around 400, most likely because the G&P gearbox I have isn't meshing right with the KART hopup, so I'm soon getting a G&P or TM hopup unit and I'll see if it'll be compatible.

[Kos-Mos]

Originally Posted by Eldin

Actually, on my KART m14, which has seen pretty much every part replaced, it uses a regular AEG rubber and bucking, but you just need to trim the end of the rubber a bit and it'll fit.

And there's one problem I have, I get extraordinarily low fps (300ish) when it should be around 400, most likely because the G&P gearbox I have isn't meshing right with the KART hopup, so I'm soon getting a G&P or TM hopup unit and I'll see if it'll be compatible.

Good to know, I though all china M14 except the CYMA used the same Hop-up system.

Makes sense that you get poor FPS if you replaced the stock nozzle with an aftermarket one for M14... since theses used a proprietary nozzle.

[Eldin]

Originally Posted by Kos-Mos

Good to know, I though all china M14 except the CYMA used the same Hop-up system.

Makes sense that you get poor FPS if you replaced the stock nozzle with an aftermarket one for M14... since theses used a proprietary nozzle.

I actually replaced my aftermarket nozzle with the stock one, because it didn't even fit into the chamber, I saw some improvement on fps, but it's not normal.

[Jackarutu]

Okay, I just got off the phone with ECHO1 and we need to make a correction to this list I started building here. While speaking of ECHO1 M14s now we need to make a distinction between original ECHO1 M14s and the “New Version ECHO1 M14”. The New Version is 100% the same as TM and Cyma.

So going with the list I started above the updated version would look like this.

Type 1 M14 Gear box fits: TM, Cyma and “New Version ECHO1” Airsoft replicas.
Type 2 M14 gear box fits: G&G, CA Airsoft replicas.
Type 3 M14 gear box fits "orignal ECHO1", Kart, A&K, AGM, Star Airsoft replicas.

Also I was advised that I'm really not going to find any aftermarket parts for the Type 3s and OEM parts will be limited to those on hand. This means for a correct air nozzle one might need to take a longer nozzle and cut it down to fit to size. In fact I was advised if at all possible avoid working on the TYPE 3s if possible. One possible solution is to take the furniture from one of these Type 3s and upgrade it with a Type 1 gear box and make my own air nozzle.

Isn’t the life of Airsoft repair and upgrades fun?

[Kos-Mos]

Most people that bought a clone M14 en up buying a G&P M14 mechbox and Modify/any brand FTK for M14. Apparently a TM hop-up unit could be a good thing too.

[KenTsui]

Excelletion information on this thread.

How do I tell if my Echo 1 M14 is new or old version?

[KenTsui]

^Anybody?

[kalnaren]

Yea, I'd like to know the answer to this too. I picked up a BNIB E1 M14 for cheap.. wouldn't mind knowing what's inside it.