Rules for Milsim Support Gunners?

[MrEvolution]

I Agree with Zekk05

[bruce]

I don't really care if someone uses a Cmag in his AR or whatever gun he has. As long as he uses only 100 bbs in the mag and can not reload it on the field.

Using a M60, M249 or M240, he'll get to load up with 200 rds in the gun and have a reload of 4 times. Each reload will again be 200 rds which will give him a total loadout of 1000rds. No sharing of his loadout to other players except if it's another M60,M249 or M240 and as long as the total does not exceed 1000 rds.

Any other type of light MG (RPK, G36, G3s) will follow real steel mags capasity and will not be allowed to reload in the field. That is, you can carry as much mags as you want but no reloading the mags in the field when it's out.

We are also going to be playing only with realcaps loadout soon. We're in the process of giving the players the time needed to equip themselves with additional mags.

[yanhchan]

As long as it isn't like the Knob Hill gunshoot...its milsim enough for me.

[Zeonprime]

well depending on the manufactuer of the LMG you may not be able to run low ammo amounts in the box mags (As Gryphon pointed out) and you may not even be able to run STAMAGs in them (The CA M249 will take a standard mag but the STAR M249 will not) Droc made a good point. it's about replicating the power.

If your going to run a game with ammo limits but allow for a SAW gunner then specific rules for them are in effect. Barrel length, ammo capacity and spare ammo capacity are the key factors I have used in the past. While up until recently having an LMG showing up on the field was rare a person with a Box mag(cmag or any other variety of high capacity mag) on a AEG made them a SAW. Now that cheap and reasonably effect LMGs are being fielded you can now limit specifically the fielding of the AEG with HICAP/BOX mags as SAWs. and just make the rules for the LMGs (CA/Star manufactuers being the most common).

[Amazing KG3]

The point of Mils is to replicate real life conflicts and fire fights. A g36 with a C mag is capable of giving support fire. It has 5.56 stopping power and the ammo capacity of C MAG (beta mag) to lay out that amount of firepower. It CAN be a support weapon and CAN provide fire support, just be cause its main function wasn't intended for support like a SAW or M60 doesn't it make it just. The MG36 is capable of it, and as such a G36 is exactly identical minus the barrel length and integrated bipod. So? Its the same fucking gun! I dont think i need to spend my life savings to buy a huge SAW to just give my team the Essential Fire support we need, i am more than wiling to bend to the rules, but this is starting to get out of hand just because of something like classification. I am at the ver least investing in Drum mags (box mags) and a bipod to at least come into the ball park of support fire power. Im not just using hicaps and calling myself a support gunner i think i am in absolutely no wrong.

Bean, F3 is in trouble, you now own THE support gun and we have nothing, im not spending 800-1200 bucks to follow AAS rules. We need to make the game more like the real thing than more like game based on limitations and rules.

[Amazing KG3]

Originally Posted by Wizard

G36 with Cmag 100rds

m249 with box mag 200 rds

both have bipod.

Both are 5.56.

Para: 465 mm

g36: 480 mm

The weight is different yes, but guess what, the G36 is a new cutting edge rifle, while the m249 is older. Im sorry you bought a brick shit house of heavy gun, but i am keeping it realistic.

I get were your coming from, sticking a C mag on any gun and calling it support weapon is unfair, so we need to make rules to compensate for that.

one rule i like is

Real steal counter part must be 5.56 or greater, Full-auto capable, and have a barrel length greater than 300mm.

Btw Wizard is my callsign and handle on AAS.

[swatt13]

i have someone or actually two people in my club who have the same view as you kg. i absolutly hate hicaps and cmag/drum mags fall under that. and so do the majority of our members, so that show we run it. your right about the g36/mg36 thing. why dont you get a k front end then youve essentially got an mg36. as i said before, thats what a member here did with his ak/rpk. i dont know if thats egsactly right but its a comprimise. if you want to be a gunner YOU should be dedicated to do it right. otherwise it just makes you seem like a poser.

but as it stands hearing your side of it, along with beans side, i dont see why you cant comprimise and mod your g36 into an m36 as i mentioned previously, and manage your trigger control. if you can show them you can follow rules with out haveing to be regulated youll both be happy.

[Amazing KG3]

It is K model, im not using a C MAG. And i just spent 220 on a RAS im not spending another 150 making a MG36. We could usr Hicaps, but that totally ruins the experience, thus the CMAG which seems fair, i like them provided rules are in play. All the teams shouldnt have to invest in a LMG just because one player has an unstobblable heavy LMG.

[Zekk05]

Why not? Why shouldnt teams have to invest in an LMG? If you want milsim, do it right. not this mickey mouse bullshit. Having a support weapon in your squad gives you a huge advantage, and thus, it shouldnt be something that just anyone can go out and pick up. Replacing a SAW gun with an M4 and box mag ruins the milsim aspect of it all, 100% lame.

We have a rule set in MB, which, when combined with Op Specific rules, operates very smoothly and creates a very milsim-like environment. The only problem Ive ever seen arise from these is the MG36 situation.

http://members.shaw.ca/axo/rules.htm

- Guns falling under the LMG classification, M249, M60, RPK's, and so on, are uncommon and can come in many different forms. Using a drum/box/c-mag as the only mod on an assault rifle does not make it an LMG.

- LMG gunners may carry as much ammo as they wish. In reality, LMG’s have a much larger supply of ammo than standard infantry.

- Most LMG's will use some form of High-Cap specific to their gun. They may carry as many box magazines/drum magazines/etc. as they wish.

- LMG's that use an AEG High-Cap, RPK and the AK High-cap for example, may only take out one (1) of the high-caps in question. The rest must be low caps. This is to prevent an RPK gunner from taking out multiple AK Highs and then giving them to other AK users.

[Amazing KG3]

I like your rule system but were not Keystone, MILSIM in the Maritimes is just starting to pick up steam, and we just cant buy an LMG. This is a counter measure to beans Super human M60. Anyways, real steel this G36 can be used. It qualifies under all rules, bipod, full auto, 5.56 caliber, limited supply Drum mag, burst and position restrictions, but the fact that it isnt Designed with LMG role in mind (essentially a 100mm barrel difference) it cannot be used, thus drastically turning the advantage.

Regardless, rules are being constructed between members of the three main Atlantic teams, Halifax Rangers, The Resistance and F3 contracting using this input and we will have it all sorted out. Thanks again.

[Zekk05]

The keystone rule set isnt used just for KS operations, its our overall ruleset thats used for All Ops and adapted accordingly. (not all our games have vehicles, and thus those that dont, we wouldnt bother with those rules). etc

[Amazing KG3]

oh i know, i mean we cant invest in a LMG.

[Horse]

I know several people have issues with support guns.

The club I participate in ( www.utahcountyairsoft.org ) has a few rules we use. These rules are "prohibitive" in nature as we dont want every yahoo being a support gunner. When we play ammo limit games only support gunners can be unlimited (we have a no winding mags rule for ammo limit days). Also: only one in 10 can be a support gunner, have to meet regs below etc. In our club we have more than 150 people, only 2 (myself included) are QSS. I used to have an AUG HBAR and an MG36 and currently saving for an M249, other guy has an L86.


(I know its long - but its our FAQ so bear with it . . .)

Originally Posted by UCA SAW forum

FAQ’s:

Q: What is the advantage of being a QSS?
A: Besides being a total bad ass? There is one key “advantage” to being a QSS: 450 fps AEG limit. This advantage does come at the cost of other rules; these will be addressed further on.

Q: What is the first thing I need to do to become a UCA QSS? Can I do this before I spend the time and money to build a gun I might not be able to use?
A: Yes you can and you should. The process is simple. There are two parts to becoming a QSS: Certifying yourself (the hard part) and certifying your AEG (the “easy” part).

Q: How do I certify myself as a QSS?
A: Only a UCA officer can certify you as a QSS. You will need to speak directly with one of the following UCA senior Officers: Bryan Stewart (Admin), Dave Wall (Missileman), JM (Gandpa), Jake Styer (Jake). These and only these four can certify you to be a QSS. Their exact certification process is based on the needs of the individual. This may seem prejudice, but it is in fact a safety issue. The Officer will ask you some questions and look over the plans for your gun. He will also hear your arguments for leniency on some of the rules if you have any. That Officer will then take your request to the other Officers and they will make a decision and notify you. It's that simple.

Q: Can a UCA officer certify me as a QSS by PM, E-mail, forums, or by phone?
A: No, this must be done in person and may take more than once.

Q: How do I certify my equipment?
A: The easy answer is the following: Have it working properly shooting under 450 fps with .20 bb’s. Then get one of the above listed UCA officers to certify your gun.
This however is not the WHOLE answer, for that you must read on:

Q: What does my gun need to be/have in order to even be considered as a support gun?
A: This is going to be the single longest answer in the FAQ’s. This is because there are a lot of rather “simple” reasons why you cannot simply have a 450 fps pistol with a high capacity magazine and think you are a QSS.

There are several KEY things an AEG needs in order to be even considered for certification.

1. An AEG (again – no support pistols or bows and arrows, but if you can throw rocks fast enough we may consider that . . .)
2. A Box/Drum/Highcap magazine capable of carrying at least 1000 rds.
3. Have a Bi-pod or Tri-pod.
4. Have a minimum weight of 15lbs.
5. Be the equivalent of a real steel squad gun.

If you do not meet every one of these categories, your gun is not a support gun and cannot be used above 400 fps for any reason.

Q1: Why an AEG?
A1: You’re not really going to make me answer this right?

Q2: Why a 1000 rd magazine?
A2: This is based on the need to be the equivalent of a real steel gun. Since every AEG made is capable of using a high capacity magazine (from 300 to 600+ rds) that could make them “support guns.” Using a box/drum etc mag of over 1000 rds clearly states your intention to be a QSS, and trust me, your going to use every single bb in that 2500 rd magazine!

Q3: Why does it have to have a bi-pod?
A3: Again, like the 1000 rd magazine issue, this is primarily a real steel equivalence issue, you don’t have to use it, but you have to have it, because in real life they have them as well. Plus they come in really handy when your actually using your fancy shmancy support gun!

Q4: Why does my gun need to weigh 15 lbs?
A4: Believe me; I had issues with this as well. Basically there is this whole equivalency thing again. A real steel M249 SAW weighs a LOT more than an M16, so your SAW is also going to weigh a lot more than a standard AEG, its only fair. Is it dumb? Maybe, but it’s the rules. If you’re fully loaded support gun is 14.96 lbs and your worried, don’t sweat it, take it to a UCA officer and have him inspect it, point out its weight and see if it will still qualify. The weight limitations are a guide for us to determine what we feel is the justification of a super powered gun. Part of our calculations were that a player who had to carry a big heavy gun SHOULD get some kind of advantage.


Q5: Why can’t my gun be any gun I want? Why does it have to be from the list of approved guns?
A5: Again this equivalency problem. . . If you haven’t noticed yet we are trying to encourage you to use a real steel support gun as an airsoft support gun, crazy concept huh? Well in order for us to make this work out then you have to use a gun that is used as a support gun in real life. There are many many guns used in this role in real steel. They are called many things: LSW (light support weapon), SAW (squad automatic weapon), LMG (Light machine gun) etc etc etc. All you need to know is that at time of this FAQ only the following guns will be considered for QSS use:

PKM (7.62 mm)
IMI Negev (5.56 x 45 mm NATO)
LMG 36 (5.56 x 45 mm)
RPD (7.62 x 39 mm)
RPK (7.62 x 39 mm)
RPK-74 (5.45 x 39 mm)
Colt CMG-1 (5.45 x 39 mm)
M249 (5.56 x 45 mm)
M60/M240 (7.62 x 51 mm)
M2 (.50 Cal)
M134 (7.62x51)
H&K 21 (E) (7.62x 51 mm)
L86A1 LSW (5.56 x 45 mm)
Steyr AUG/HBAR (5.56 x 45 mm)
Colt Automatic Rifle (5.56 x 45 mm)
Heckler & Koch MG36 (5.56 x 45 mm)
Type 81 (7.62 mm)
Ultimax

Is this the above all and end all of lists? For all intents and purposes – yes. If your gun is not on this list, its not going to be a support gun. It's not just the gun itself, but the way it's used (it's not all about size...it's what you do with it). The idea behind the support weapon is that you would have only one per squad, and your purpose is to use it to support your squad, or your team by using it at a fixed position (i.e. a machine gun nest or bunker) or actually mounted to a vehicle.


Q: If I meet all the required specs can I just use my gun and be a QSS?
A: All support guns must meet approval from UCA officer before they can be used in UCA games. This means if it hasn’t been inspected you CANNOT use it.

Q: What about the STAR M249 SAW?
A: The Star M249 is an exception to the weight rule because as a replica it models a gun whose original purpose was to be used as a SAW.

Q: What if I deck out my AR with a bipod and a box mag.
A: AR variants are not on the approval list.

Q: What if my AR is decked out to be a SAW but is shooting 400 FPS or less? Can I still use it?
A: Of course, you can use ANY gun shooting within the limits set in the UCA rules. The Support Class is specifically for the 450 FPS advantage.

Q: Isn't 450 fps dangerous?
A: It is more dangerous than 400 fps yes. That is why we will not allow just anyone to qualify as a support specialist. A player must have shown dedication to the club, a high degree of sportsmanship and honesty, and a profound respect for others. New players have not had time to demonstrate this and therefore would not likely be approved. When using a support gun for safety the min engagement distance is also raised to 35+ ft, up from the normal 20’

Q: Can I have my QSS gun shooting 450 fps with .25g bb’s?
A: NO! The 450 fps rule is dictated by using .20g bb’s, if you are shooting that speed with .25g you are way out of line and a serious safety hazard. DO NOT DO THIS!

Q: Well I know of several MP5 or other real steel guns being used as SAW's. If it's one of those are you saying I cannot use this class with those guns?
A: We recognize that there are many variations on may guns in the world. Over the years people have done very creative things with even the oldest weapons. In airsoft we have to have certain limits in order to maintain a playable balance. We like this Support Class rule and want it to be a balanced, playable option in games. For that reason and other we cannot allow all the wonderful variety of real world weapon to qualify.