G&G CM, dBoys SD, or ICS? Which to buy?

globalogicom · June 7th, 2011, 15:30

Fairly new to airsoft, just recently had bad experience with an A&K M4 S-system, looking to get a new rifle. Note: I live in the U.S. After a lot of research for a rifle in my prices range $150-200 with battery, I have come up with these top three rifles. I have team members that have this exact G&G model (not raider, and they have had no major issues in first year), and Dboys brand, but no one with ICS, nor do I have the ability to really compare the quality of the three. So, I would greatly appreciate assistance in this selection:

G&G Combat Machines M4A1 or M4 Raider:
http://www.airsplat.com/Items/ER-GG-CM-M16-CA.htm
or
http://www.airsoftmegastore.com/G_G_...rm4b-black.htm

Boyi Dboys M4 SD full metal:
http://www.airsplat.com/Items/ERM-BI-M4-3881M.htm

ICS M4A1 Full metal :
http://www.airsplat.com/Items/ER-ICS-M4A1CARB.htm

thanks,

George Burdell · June 7th, 2011, 18:14

You cannot import airsoft to Canada unless you use the airgun exception, but it's probably just better to buy in Canada. To use the airgun exception you need a gun that fires over 407 fps and you need to pay the extra amount for the RCMP to test it. In the end it will probably end up costing you more, so use a Canadian retailer. Unfortunately most good guns here will cost $350+ if you buy from a non ASC retailer or you could get age verified and get a better deal.

Styrak · June 7th, 2011, 18:29

Are you in Canada? If so forget those retailers.

The best gun you listed is the ICS M4.

globalogicom · June 7th, 2011, 18:56

Sorry for not clarifying, I am in the US.

Could you expand on why the ICS is a better gun.

thanks,

Styrak · June 7th, 2011, 18:56

It's better because it's better quality. That's also obvious in the price difference.

If you're in the US, get something better. Your guns are cheap.
Try CA or G&P.

Also, the batteries that come with guns are generally crap. Get yourself a good smart charger and something like an Intellect or Elite battery.

Sportco · June 7th, 2011, 23:11

The major advantage of the M4 ics is the split gearbox configuration.

You have a upper and a lower

(the upper is piston, cylinder, spring, head, nosel and spring guide)
(the lower is the gears, trigger, switch, anti reversal and motor)

The first advantage is that you buy an extra upper mechbox and set each one for specific context (325fps for inside) (385 for outside) you can crack open an ICS M4 and switch between upper gearboxs in less then a minute!!!

Second advantage is that you can disassemble, clean, lube and reassemble the upper is about 20 minutes... so you do... keeping your weapon healthy

Third advantage, if you have a problem... you split the gun and you can see the lower mechbox operate... real nice if you need to diagnose something

Fourth advantage cleaning and lubing the lower can be done to a great extent without disassembly because once the gun is split all is readally accessible from the top

Fifth advantage the ICS hop-up unit is increadably stable out of the box

All one really needs is to blueprint the upper gearbox to get it to its full potential, aside from a 6,03 prometeus and a High power exterior upper mecbox this gun needs no modifications

But All that comes at the price of one limitation... because of the way the upper and lower are mated together (2 pins) the ICS M4 should not be pushed beyond 400-410fps range it seems to thrive a 385fps

If your someone who enjoys maintaining is equipment and keeping it in good shape, the ICS is a good choice... if your going to ignore it and run it into the ground... you wont appreciate the advantages

Ps You DID clarify you lived in the USa...

Cheers

globalogicom · June 8th, 2011, 11:28

Softco - makes perfect sense as major advantages, thanks.

Couple questions on the ICS:
1.) Is this gearbox what is considered 'upgraded'.

2). You stated, "All one really needs is to blueprint the upper gearbox to get it to its full potential, aside from a 6,03 prometeus and a High power exterior upper mecbox this gun needs no modifications." By saying blueprint do you mean upgrade the upper gearbox? So, by purchasing this http://www.airsplat.com/Items/AC-UPI-MA120K.htm I can switch out the upper gearbox and get close to 400fps?

3) If you end up adding the upper gearbox and new barrel, you're adding like $130 to the $185, so like $315. Does it make more sense to get another rifle that already has the upgraded gearbox and 6.03 barrel in the $300 range?

thanks,

Sportco · June 8th, 2011, 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by globalogicom

Sportco - makes perfect sense as major advantages, thanks.

Couple questions on the ICS:
1.) Is this gearbox what is considered 'upgraded'.

Your "out of the box" M4 shoots at around 317-325fps. First, what you do is polish the inside of the upper mecbox (blueprint it) by doing so you bring up the fps to about 335-345fps. Considering that 350fps is the max for inside play (in canada anyway) your maxed out AND you get that result without putting in a stronger spring so, no added strain on your battery and mecbox... results in a more reliable weapon that grows old more gracefully

2). You stated, "All one really needs is to blueprint the upper gearbox to get it to its full potential, aside from a 6,03 prometeus and a High power exterior upper mecbox this gun needs no modifications." By saying blueprint do you mean upgrade the upper gearbox? So, by purchasing this http://www.airsplat.com/Items/AC-UPI-MA120K.htm I can switch out the upper gearbox and get close to 400fps?

Ps that is the MA47 kit... get the MA54 it as oversized cylinder and better quality piston but yes that is the best upgrade investement you can make.

What I meant was the only stuff you should even consider are (a 6.03mm prometheus stainless steel barrel and a more powerfull exterior gearbox ((ICS kit "54" I think... seach it!) But you don't need any upgrade anything the last game I played outside I was using my inside gearbox at 335fps and it worked like a charm. I still think that 375-385fps is perfect for outside... the rules are usually 400fps max for AEG anyway and that extra 15fps is what breaks the camels back.

Ps the M120 ICS 54 kit will shoot at 417fps initially once blueprinted I add to replace the M120 spring with a M110 to drop under 400fps

3) If you end up adding the upper gearbox and new barrel, you're adding like $130 to the $185, so like $315. Does it make more sense to get another rifle that already has the upgraded gearbox and 6.03 barrel in the $300 range?

Bone stock, that rifle is amazing... you buy the ICS for a specific set of reasons... and BTW not all 6,03 are the same... the prometheus is stainless steel personnaly... I like that...

thanks,

"Don't modify you gun" the treads are filled with frustrated people who sank 400$ or 500$ into a new gun to see performance decrease... for example if you lenghten or shorten your barrel the cylinder you will need changes.. no slots, 2 slots, 4 slots... same if you play with spring tension.

The best advice I can give you is polish the upper... and leave it bone stoke for a year... once you have seem all the problems and breakdowns experienced by "upgraders"... then you can decide if that is how you want to live your hobby

PS what i'm giving you here is an opinion... mine... not the absolut truth... beware of people who speek in absolut... they usually CHANGE there absolut truth quite often!!!

Cheers

globalogicom · June 8th, 2011, 14:55

Great advice and all makes perfect sense. As for 'polishing the upper' how do I go about doing this? Tried researching but I can not find a clear step by step guide/video on doing this, including materials to use, etc. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated.

globalogicom · June 8th, 2011, 15:01

Sportco, another question. The G&G GM shown above says it comes with these Internal Upgrades: Brass Gear Box Bushings, Ball Bearing Spring Guide Rod, 6.035mm Precision Inner Barrel, 366 mm Barrel Length, Metal Gear Box, Steel Gears.

So this G&G comes with these upgrades you've mentioned, so besides the split gearbox (which is a huge advantage) why is the ICS a better gun?

m102404 · June 8th, 2011, 15:26

I've had to take the occasional burr/flashing out of a mechbox, but I've never polished the area that the piston occupies.

Do you really think that a BRASS bushing is suitable to hold a STEEL/IRON axel that is rotating at high speed and is under load?

Take what's said/marketed with a grain of salt...EVERYTHING in airsoft is either stock...or an "upgrade". Nothing is labeled "SHITTY" for marketing...but there's plenty of it out there.

globalogicom · June 8th, 2011, 16:54

m102404,

So are you saying that G&G internal may sound better but are not better than the ICS internals?

thanks,

m102404 · June 8th, 2011, 17:16

I haven't seen the inside of a recent example of either...so it would be unfair for me to say this or that is better.

What I am saying is that airsoft is littered with "upgrades" that are in fact worst than crap. Element/ACM stuff is a great example of that...their "Bearing Spring Guide" is a lousy piece of garbage...a plain metal spring guide would be a better alternative to that. Same with some vented piston heads...or reinforced mechboxes...or pistons...etc..

I don't think ICS has changed very much in their M4 V2 mechboxes...so at least you know what you're getting into.

G&G was all over the place with their sportlines and blow backs and half clear offerings, etc...

With ANY AEG, especially your first one, go with the best platform that you can afford. Best Platform meaning a make/model that is:
1. Most Compatible with the cosmetic changes (i.e. rails/grips/stocks/etc..) that you might want to do down the road
2. Offers the best externals so far as fit/finish/durability (because all internals are much easier to get down the road)
3. Has a decent mechbox/internals...and whose internals are best compatible with the majority of stuff readily available to you. (I.e. it sucks ass to be stuck to buying from the one dealer in North America that may carry a specific part for your gun)

To that end...I would not get one of G&G's blowback guns...and I wouldn't get an ICS truth be told.

Keep in mind that, with few exceptions, when you're looking at low cost (i.e. cheap guns) manufacturers package their stuff such that you tend to get a better external/sturdy "shell" of a gun and not as nice internals. The next step up sees a better balance between externals and internals...above that and you tend to get very nice examples that have both.

How high you set that bar depends on your budget. If your gun budget is $300...you're in the shit. If it's $500...you're getting into some passable stuff. If it's $800+...you're into some sweet stuff.

Sportco · June 8th, 2011, 20:54

Hum...

Without getting into the "Ford is the best GM %&$%... debate" I always have a problem with concepts such a paying 800$ for a TOY... I have over 300000 BB thought a gun I perchased to "try airsoft"... without any major issue

You want security buy two guns @ 325$ that still only 650$ and a lot more reliable than any 1100$ gun (switch guns at reload need there be!!!)

After all we are just a bunch of wantabees playing war... At some point it is important to stop over thinking everything.

If you think about it; a day of airsoft at an official game will set you back a 100$ (registration, gas, lunch, beer,restaurant, bb's) plus the odd uniform you will have to get in order to play with the people you want to play with (od pixel black tan camo... russian...)

The expensive part of playing airsoft is getting equiped (Boot, radio, secondary, mags, flashlight, hats, tack vest, GOOD goggles, mouth protection!!! Not buying the first AEG

As I stated somewhere up there ICS M4 split gearbox is the cats miow for maintenance and usability reasons

Get the one that feel right to you... but don't get presured into over buying "you are not going to Afganistan... save your money you will need it to play!!!

Isn't that what your in for? Control your budget... airsoft is a very pleasant BUT expensive addiction... good luck!!!

As for blueprinting... get the gun... then will talk!

Cheers

m102404 · June 8th, 2011, 22:37

Please don't take the price points that I put out there as any hard and fast rule that you have to live by.

However...over the years and after seeing many, many, many different things...and after reviewing both what is in the classifieds, and what is available at the retailers...I'd still say that the same price points exist.

And further...I'd still say that a $300 JG/A&K has a lousy stock mechbox and isn't worth buying (for that price)...but I'll concede that a $600 Echo1 249 para also has a shitty mechbox too.

I am certainly not saying that 100% you get what you pay for and you need to pay a lot...but it does tend to hold true for most situations.

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June 7th, 2011, 15:30	#1
globalogicom Trader rating Join Date: Jun 2011	G&G CM, dBoys SD, or ICS? Which to buy? Fairly new to airsoft, just recently had bad experience with an A&K M4 S-system, looking to get a new rifle. Note: I live in the U.S. After a lot of research for a rifle in my prices range $150-200 with battery, I have come up with these top three rifles. I have team members that have this exact G&G model (not raider, and they have had no major issues in first year), and Dboys brand, but no one with ICS, nor do I have the ability to really compare the quality of the three. So, I would greatly appreciate assistance in this selection: G&G Combat Machines M4A1 or M4 Raider: http://www.airsplat.com/Items/ER-GG-CM-M16-CA.htm or http://www.airsoftmegastore.com/G_G_...rm4b-black.htm Boyi Dboys M4 SD full metal: http://www.airsplat.com/Items/ERM-BI-M4-3881M.htm ICS M4A1 Full metal : http://www.airsplat.com/Items/ER-ICS-M4A1CARB.htm thanks, Last edited by globalogicom; June 7th, 2011 at 18:49..

June 7th, 2011, 18:29	#3
Styrak Trader rating Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Saskatoon, SK	Are you in Canada? If so forget those retailers. The best gun you listed is the ICS M4. __________________ Airsoft Sales and Repair/Upgrade Services

June 7th, 2011, 18:56	#5
Styrak Trader rating Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Saskatoon, SK	It's better because it's better quality. That's also obvious in the price difference. If you're in the US, get something better. Your guns are cheap. Try CA or G&P. Also, the batteries that come with guns are generally crap. Get yourself a good smart charger and something like an Intellect or Elite battery. __________________ Airsoft Sales and Repair/Upgrade Services

June 7th, 2011, 18:14	#2
George Burdell Trader rating Join Date: May 2011 Location: Toronto	You cannot import airsoft to Canada unless you use the airgun exception, but it's probably just better to buy in Canada. To use the airgun exception you need a gun that fires over 407 fps and you need to pay the extra amount for the RCMP to test it. In the end it will probably end up costing you more, so use a Canadian retailer. Unfortunately most good guns here will cost $350+ if you buy from a non ASC retailer or you could get age verified and get a better deal.

June 7th, 2011, 23:11	#6
Sportco would-be wine thief Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: St-Hilaire	The major advantage of the M4 ics is the split gearbox configuration. You have a upper and a lower (the upper is piston, cylinder, spring, head, nosel and spring guide) (the lower is the gears, trigger, switch, anti reversal and motor) The first advantage is that you buy an extra upper mechbox and set each one for specific context (325fps for inside) (385 for outside) you can crack open an ICS M4 and switch between upper gearboxs in less then a minute!!! Second advantage is that you can disassemble, clean, lube and reassemble the upper is about 20 minutes... so you do... keeping your weapon healthy Third advantage, if you have a problem... you split the gun and you can see the lower mechbox operate... real nice if you need to diagnose something Fourth advantage cleaning and lubing the lower can be done to a great extent without disassembly because once the gun is split all is readally accessible from the top Fifth advantage the ICS hop-up unit is increadably stable out of the box All one really needs is to blueprint the upper gearbox to get it to its full potential, aside from a 6,03 prometeus and a High power exterior upper mecbox this gun needs no modifications But All that comes at the price of one limitation... because of the way the upper and lower are mated together (2 pins) the ICS M4 should not be pushed beyond 400-410fps range it seems to thrive a 385fps If your someone who enjoys maintaining is equipment and keeping it in good shape, the ICS is a good choice... if your going to ignore it and run it into the ground... you wont appreciate the advantages Ps You DID clarify you lived in the USa... Cheers __________________ Level 3 Directory assistance operator Level 1 skapegoat It ain't the years, it's the miles. Last edited by Sportco; June 8th, 2011 at 00:03..

June 8th, 2011, 11:28	#7
globalogicom Trader rating Join Date: Jun 2011	Softco - makes perfect sense as major advantages, thanks. Couple questions on the ICS: 1.) Is this gearbox what is considered 'upgraded'. 2). You stated, "All one really needs is to blueprint the upper gearbox to get it to its full potential, aside from a 6,03 prometeus and a High power exterior upper mecbox this gun needs no modifications." By saying blueprint do you mean upgrade the upper gearbox? So, by purchasing this http://www.airsplat.com/Items/AC-UPI-MA120K.htm I can switch out the upper gearbox and get close to 400fps? 3) If you end up adding the upper gearbox and new barrel, you're adding like $130 to the $185, so like $315. Does it make more sense to get another rifle that already has the upgraded gearbox and 6.03 barrel in the $300 range? thanks, Last edited by globalogicom; June 8th, 2011 at 11:36..

June 8th, 2011, 14:55	#9
globalogicom Trader rating Join Date: Jun 2011	Polishing the Upper mecbox Great advice and all makes perfect sense. As for 'polishing the upper' how do I go about doing this? Tried researching but I can not find a clear step by step guide/video on doing this, including materials to use, etc. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated.

June 8th, 2011, 15:01	#10
globalogicom Trader rating Join Date: Jun 2011	Sportco, another question. The G&G GM shown above says it comes with these Internal Upgrades: Brass Gear Box Bushings, Ball Bearing Spring Guide Rod, 6.035mm Precision Inner Barrel, 366 mm Barrel Length, Metal Gear Box, Steel Gears. So this G&G comes with these upgrades you've mentioned, so besides the split gearbox (which is a huge advantage) why is the ICS a better gun?

June 8th, 2011, 15:26	#11
m102404 Tys Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Toronto	I've had to take the occasional burr/flashing out of a mechbox, but I've never polished the area that the piston occupies. Do you really think that a BRASS bushing is suitable to hold a STEEL/IRON axel that is rotating at high speed and is under load? Take what's said/marketed with a grain of salt...EVERYTHING in airsoft is either stock...or an "upgrade". Nothing is labeled "SHITTY" for marketing...but there's plenty of it out there.

June 8th, 2011, 16:54	#12
globalogicom Trader rating Join Date: Jun 2011	m102404, So are you saying that G&G internal may sound better but are not better than the ICS internals? thanks,

June 8th, 2011, 17:16	#13
m102404 Tys Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Toronto	I haven't seen the inside of a recent example of either...so it would be unfair for me to say this or that is better. What I am saying is that airsoft is littered with "upgrades" that are in fact worst than crap. Element/ACM stuff is a great example of that...their "Bearing Spring Guide" is a lousy piece of garbage...a plain metal spring guide would be a better alternative to that. Same with some vented piston heads...or reinforced mechboxes...or pistons...etc.. I don't think ICS has changed very much in their M4 V2 mechboxes...so at least you know what you're getting into. G&G was all over the place with their sportlines and blow backs and half clear offerings, etc... With ANY AEG, especially your first one, go with the best platform that you can afford. Best Platform meaning a make/model that is: 1. Most Compatible with the cosmetic changes (i.e. rails/grips/stocks/etc..) that you might want to do down the road 2. Offers the best externals so far as fit/finish/durability (because all internals are much easier to get down the road) 3. Has a decent mechbox/internals...and whose internals are best compatible with the majority of stuff readily available to you. (I.e. it sucks ass to be stuck to buying from the one dealer in North America that may carry a specific part for your gun) To that end...I would not get one of G&G's blowback guns...and I wouldn't get an ICS truth be told. Keep in mind that, with few exceptions, when you're looking at low cost (i.e. cheap guns) manufacturers package their stuff such that you tend to get a better external/sturdy "shell" of a gun and not as nice internals. The next step up sees a better balance between externals and internals...above that and you tend to get very nice examples that have both. How high you set that bar depends on your budget. If your gun budget is $300...you're in the shit. If it's $500...you're getting into some passable stuff. If it's $800+...you're into some sweet stuff.

June 8th, 2011, 20:54	#14
Sportco would-be wine thief Trader rating Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: St-Hilaire	Hum... Without getting into the "Ford is the best GM %&$%... debate" I always have a problem with concepts such a paying 800$ for a TOY... I have over 300000 BB thought a gun I perchased to "try airsoft"... without any major issue You want security buy two guns @ 325$ that still only 650$ and a lot more reliable than any 1100$ gun (switch guns at reload need there be!!!) After all we are just a bunch of wantabees playing war... At some point it is important to stop over thinking everything. If you think about it; a day of airsoft at an official game will set you back a 100$ (registration, gas, lunch, beer,restaurant, bb's) plus the odd uniform you will have to get in order to play with the people you want to play with (od pixel black tan camo... russian...) The expensive part of playing airsoft is getting equiped (Boot, radio, secondary, mags, flashlight, hats, tack vest, GOOD goggles, mouth protection!!! Not buying the first AEG As I stated somewhere up there ICS M4 split gearbox is the cats miow for maintenance and usability reasons Get the one that feel right to you... but don't get presured into over buying "you are not going to Afganistan... save your money you will need it to play!!! Isn't that what your in for? Control your budget... airsoft is a very pleasant BUT expensive addiction... good luck!!! As for blueprinting... get the gun... then will talk! Cheers __________________ Level 3 Directory assistance operator Level 1 skapegoat It ain't the years, it's the miles. Last edited by Sportco; June 8th, 2011 at 21:02..

June 8th, 2011, 22:37	#15
m102404 Tys Trader rating Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Toronto	Please don't take the price points that I put out there as any hard and fast rule that you have to live by. However...over the years and after seeing many, many, many different things...and after reviewing both what is in the classifieds, and what is available at the retailers...I'd still say that the same price points exist. And further...I'd still say that a $300 JG/A&K has a lousy stock mechbox and isn't worth buying (for that price)...but I'll concede that a $600 Echo1 249 para also has a shitty mechbox too. I am certainly not saying that 100% you get what you pay for and you need to pay a lot...but it does tend to hold true for most situations.

G&G CM, dBoys SD, or ICS? Which to buy?

Airsoft Guns Discussion